Hard to start sometimes dies when idling

[robertheath]

OK, so here's the deal. I have a 67 Belvedere II with a 318 that I believe came out of a 69 Dart. It's my first project car. It's been really hard to start and I ended up draining the battery trying to get it going. I recharged the battery (probably a year old at the most) and tried again but when I turned the ignition I would just hear a click.

I replaced the starter since the one on it looked pretty old. After replacing the starter she started like a champ. I've been driving her for a few days and today she started giving me a little trouble starting again. Once started she ran a little rough and died a couple of times at stop lights.

When I got the car I was told that the timing probably needed to be adjusted. I'm under the impression that the battery and starter are fine since they're both pretty new. My next guess is that the spark plugs need to be replaced. I'm very new to the mechanic world so any incite would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Clay Dots]

could be

either and aceleration pump/diaphriam or possible dirty/clogged fuel filter, might have two filters or could just have one inline. best wishes!
CD

 

[Redpolara]

The fuel pump could also be on it's way out,but start with your cheapest options first.....as Clay Dots suggested.

 

[robertheath]

Thanks for the suggestions

Thanks guys. I think the engine is getting starved because when I hit the throttle when the car is off the gas drips into the jets rather than spraying in. I'm going to check the fuel pump and accelerator pump and cross my fingers that the carb doesn't need an overhaul.

 

[robertheath]

I've now replaced the starter, fuel pump, spark plugs, and fuel filter. The issue seems to be the same. Most of the time it starts right up however after driving for a few minutes, presumably when the engine gets hot, it either dies or temporarily stops accelerating when I press the accelerator. When it dies I've been able to get it started again by having someone shake the fuel filter while I crank the ignition. I'm not sure if shaking the fuel filter is actually making a difference or if that's just a coincidence.

 

[07charger67]

I would check the the float and the needle and seat. Maybe they are getting gummed up and floading the engine or the float isn't adjusted right?????? Could the coil be heating up and not supplying enough power to the distributor????? Try some of those things too.

 

[Redpolara]

Ok,this is a long shot but I have seen something very similar....years ago.
Same deal, short drive then nothing......but it would start again....turned out someone had shoved a plastic bag in the fuel tank. It sucks up against the pickup....and starves it, after the engine cuts out the plactic bag drifts away from the pickup....ready for another short stint, and so on and so on...sound familiar?

 

[Clay Dots]

I still think its

The acelrator pump diaphram, not postive but have had the same kind of symptom over the years and that was the culprit, like I said before also sometimes there are two fuel filters, one hidden under the car on the frame so if you replace the one by the block their might be another. Or as the above poster mentioned you could have crud in your tank sucking up starving fuel flow. best wishes:edgy:

 

[Meep-Meep]

Sounds like you have (or had) multiple issues. Just to clarify, it seems the car cranks over every time so no more starter issues.

A weak accel pump shot will definitely cause a stumble or kill the engine as you push the go pedal. You may be into a carb rebuild, but that's not difficult if you pay attention!

 

[robertheath]

More info

I was told the gas tank and sending unit were recently replaced, the gas tank looks very new. I checked the fuel line between the tank and the fuel pump and it all looks like it's in decent shape, no kinks or dents, however it is the original fuel line.

Someone suggested vapor lock might be an issue so I replaced the steel fuel line between the carb and the steel line that comes off of the fuel pump with 5/16" rubber fuel line and an inline pressure gauge. When the motor is running fuel pressure at the carb is between 0 and 10psi. I'm not sure what else to do to prevent vapor lock. I read that putting a spacer underneath the carb might help.

There are two short rubber hoses on either side of the fuel filter I'm going to replace today. I looked but didn't see a second fuel filter anywhere.

I'm thinking a carb rebuild might be the next step. I've never rebuilt a carb before but it seems pretty straight forward.

 

[olebrowndodge]

is your alternater charging your battery

 

[robertheath]

The battery and alternator were both replaced recently, the alternator seems to be charging the battery fine. I started the car this evening and let it run for a while. I drove around the block and it died as I pulled into the driveway and wouldn't restart. I unhooked the fuel line from the carb and gas was shooting out as I tried to start it again.

I haven't gotten around to replacing the accelerator pump in the carb yet, so that may be the issue. At this point it seems pretty likely that there is an issue with the carb. Before I pull it apart to replace the accelerator pump I just wanted to get some feedback to see if there are any other suggestions at what might be the issue.

 

[dcatcha]

Before you spend the money on carb rebuild go buy a can a Seafoam... and dump it (according to the directions) into your gas tank... this will clean your fuel line, and carb out.

If you leave the car in park and let the car run does it die?
Does the car only die when their is a load on the engine (eg in gear)?
Does your car have a mechanical, or an after market electric pump on it?
Is this the orignal engine? Was the fuel pump rod also replaced?
Have you checked the cap on your distributor?

 

[khryslerkid]

Sounds like a sticking float to me. Carb bowl fills up, it uses the gas thats in the bowl, float sticks in the up or "closed" position and the engine stops running. The float eventually drops alowing the bowl to fill again and the car starts.

Next time leave the air cleaner off, take it for a drive, when it stops don't try starting it. Open the hood, look into the carb and see if the squirters are working when pulling back on the throttle. If not, tap on the carb at the fuel line and see if your squirters start to work all of a sudden. This would still require a carb rebuild...

 

[69_XS29L]

66 Plymouth

Not much mention of ignition here and that is surprising. Ignition problems act like fuel problems and vice versa, especially on points setups. In my experience the electronic ignition setups tend to be all or nothing, runs or it don't. A good tune up is always the first place to start for driveability problems, and they don't cost much. Cracked cap or carbon tracked rotor will cause start and misfire problems, failing plug or coil wires will misfire under load, as in acceleration. Plugs tend to be a higher RPM miss. Failing condenser will cause weak spark, as will pitted points, worn points that don't open far enough, or corrosion at the breaker plate. When the stock coil on my 69 Charger failed it acted up when hot, it would start but not accelerate without dying. Rough idle, dies under load could be a vacuum leak. Timing? If it starts and runs cold, then it just means those guys had a problem they were to lazy to figure out and passed it to you, and the timing is pretty good.
I agree with these other folks, you probably have more than one issue, and it seems fuel related. You seem to have noticed that the carb might be dry or accelerator pump is weak when you have the no start condition. I keep a small squirt bottle of fuel ( and a fire extinguisher ) in the shop to jet enough fuel into the intake to get a no start going.
Looks like you live in sunny Tejas. If the carb is percolating dry on your factory setup, consider blocking your heat riser and putting the thickest insulator under the carb you can find. If it is leaking down into the manifold when hot you should have a fair amount of black smoke when it does start. Your block mounted fuel pump cannot suck or push hot vaporizing fuel well, and the hassle of the big block vapor separator might be too much. Check your fuel lines for routing and damage all the way to the tank, consider trying an electric pump mounted near the fuel tank.
You don't seem intimidated by learning or doing, good for you. If you tear your carb down, keep everything in the order you took it apart in a clear area towards the back of your bench, and if you have a Carter carb use the tag or the number stamped on the base to find parts.
Here is a link to my 4shared account:
http://www.4shared.com/dir/MANiUld7/Service_manuals.html
There is a .pdf of the '66 Plymouth Service Manual there, you need it. It is not a searchable scan, but it is complete, even if it is a little dirty. If you find your engine is indeed a '69 I can scan and send the engine and carb related stuff from my Charger manual when I get home. There are wiring diagrams for your '67 as well.
Let everybody know how you do, and good luck, Mike.

 

[robertheath]

The issue turned out to be the fuel line. After replacing the fuel pump, carb, fuel filter, and everything else I could think of, I decided to run some rubber fuel line between the tank and the fuel pump. After spending a few hundred dollars replacing the expensive stuff it turned out I just needed $25 worth of hose.