Help please, car wont run unless it has 30-40 degrees base timing????

[Green72Runner]

I have been messing around for 2 hours now with no progress, maybe all you guys can help me.
as stated in the title the only way it will run, or even try to fire is if the base timing is way advanced.
Can an ignition box go bad and cause this?
Plugs and wires?

The motor will run for a bit then sputter and die, when it dies it blows back up the primary carb (6 pack set up) and then the primary carb is all wet from fuel.
I have checked the float levels they seem good. When it does run the bowls are dry, but then when it dies it seems to spit up fuel and flood it so i can't start it until i wait a bit.

Any suggestions, things to try?
Could a blown power valve do this?

Thanks

 

[toolmanmike]

If I were to cruise over to your place to help you out, I would pull #1 plug, stick my finger over the hole and bump the engine over till it blows my finger out. Then I would look at the balancer to make sure it was at top dead center. From there I would pop the cap and see where the rotor is pointing. From that point, either by turning the distributor or re-arranging the plug wires I would make sure the firing order is 18436572 (counterclockwise for big blocks, clockwise for small blocks). Most engines will at least start at tdc and I usually start at 10° before. Put everything back together and it should start. I don't know what work was done to your engine (cam, timing chain replacement, rebuild) but it just sounds like the static timing is off. tmm

 

[mopar505]

If I were to cruise over to your place to help you out, I would pull #1 plug, stick my finger over the hole and bump the engine over till it blows my finger out. Then I would look at the balancer to make sure it was at top dead center. From there I would pop the cap and see where the rotor is pointing. From that point, either by turning the distributor or re-arranging the plug wires I would make sure the firing order is 18436572 (counterclockwise for big blocks, clockwise for small blocks). Most engines will at least start at tdc and I usually start at 10° before. Put everything back together and it should start. I don't know what work was done to your engine (cam, timing chain replacement, rebuild) but it just sounds like the static timing is off. tmm

thats where my mind went to as well, not enough info though? whats been done or what is history on the motor?

 

[Garys1969RR]

Sounds as if your harmonic balancer is not marked properly. Should be a groove on it. Rotate the crankshaft until the groove lines up with the TDC mark on your timing cover. Pull #1 plug (front one on driver side). See if the piston is at the top of its stroke, either visually or with a small screwdriver. Then paint a white stripe on the groove, for easy visibility when using the timing lite.

- - - Updated - - -

Also make sure your timing lite is hooked to the #1 plug wire. Again, that's furthest forward on the driver side. Do all this and you will prob find the problem.

 

[IQ52]

Have changed any of the wiring? How long has it been doing this?

 

[Hemi Rebel]

The outer metal band on the balancer can slip on the rubber. I would find #1 tdc. By pulling the plug and bending my eyeball to look in the hole. Then see how your mark lines up.

 

[toolmanmike]

thats where my mind went to as well, not enough info though? whats been done or what is history on the motor?

That's where the old "time by ear" comes into play. I'm sure the balancer on my Super Bee was slipped. I would time it by ear and it ran good. If it kicked back against the starter it was too much. Back then I didn't know about total advance and "all in by 2000" As long as it would smoke the tires it was good. LOL
Old timer I know! tmm

 

[kiwigtx]

It's a good chance that your plug leads are out by one on the distributor cap....and the timing is actually only about 10-15 degrees out. Follow the advice above, check your rotor in relation to the cap, then re-check the timing if you get it running again.

I've done it once myself, thought the engine was running at around 60 degrees out...changed the leads and it was spot on.

 

[Green72Runner]

Thanks guys for all the suggestions, I will double check all this. This originally started out of nowhere one day the car ran great and the next time we drove it we had to advance the distributor to get it to run. Something like the balancer slipped is a possibility. But I know my dad swapped the distributor after we started having issues so maybe the wires got off. I will double check it all and come back with what I find.
Thanks again

 

[Seax440Dodge]

It's a good chance that your plug leads are out by one on the distributor cap....and the timing is actually only about 10-15 degrees out. Follow the advice above, check your rotor in relation to the cap, then re-check the timing if you get it running again.

I've done it once myself, thought the engine was running at around 60 degrees out...changed the leads and it was spot on.

:icon_pidu: yeah, what he said

 

[miller]

But I know my dad swapped the distributor after we started having issues so maybe the wires got off. I will double check it all and come back with what I find.
Thanks again

I'd suggest you start at the bottom, and go up. Back to basics. Something is flaky.
Do what you have to do to completely check your timing issues. Even if you need to pull a valve cover, to positively get #1 on TDC compression stroke. Both #1 valves will be closed. Do you understand the bit on exhaust stroke? That's the other stroke that puts the piston up. If on exhaust stroke, if you (by hand) move the crank back and forth a little, you'll see both #1 valves move a little.
Once at TDC compression stroke, look at your balancer's timing mark. There should be a mark for TDC (Top Dead Center). I'm just saying to make sure it's right...first...otherwise your wasting your time.
Then you can go through everything else, and find what's off. Might check your plug wiring off the dist cap...might be one off, since the dist has been fooled with. That kinda stuff is easy to do.

 

[Hemi Rebel]

What are we working on here. What engine? Whats been done? I had a scamp way back when that did this to me. Out of nowhere the timing changed on me. I think I was driving home from work. Regardless, I reset the timing (10 degrees off iirc) and drove it for another 2 days. Then the timing chain finally let all the way go. The nylon on the cam gear broke apart. The chain jumped first which threw the timing off. Then a few days later I went to start it and nothing. When I shut it off last the engine probably kicked back a little and that was enough to kill it the rest of the way. Not saying that is what happened in this case, just something to think about

 

[miller]

Yeah, but you could be absolutely right, too!
That's why I told him to start at the beginning basics, and go from there.

Too many different parts and pieces involved in that kinda deal. Could be a slipped tooth on the timing chain, bad drive gear for the dist., simply dist. installed wrong, or the wiring...on and on.

Hope it's something simple, and easy fix. No telling.

 

[Green72Runner]

Ok i have checked a few things
Here is what i got
440 6 pack motor
10:1 compression
Mopar .509 cam
We have run the car quite a few times probably have in the ball park of 6-7000 miles on the motor.
One day we took it for a drive it started running funny and then to get it to start we needed to advance the distributor.
Seems to be rich, or at least the primary carb bowls are wet when it dies.

I don't currently have on have the correct size socket to rotate the crank by hand so i did the finger over the #1 hole, had someone bump the starter and when my finger blew out the mark was at 7* ATDC so i know that the balancer is at least close if not right on.
I double checked the spark plug wires and firing order, they seem to be in order.
i guess i will have to keep hunting and get stuff to get double check the timing exactly

 

[charger360]

socket is 1 1/4 inch best way to figure this out is make sure your timing is right. find true tdc then check your balancer to be sure it is in the right spot. I would be surprised if it needed that much spark lead! 15-18 is probably good if it still runs bad I would swap on a good known carb and try it again. is it a six pack or just a six pack motor?

 

[miller]

I don't currently have on have the correct size socket to rotate the crank by hand so i did the finger over the #1 hole, had someone bump the starter and when my finger blew out the mark was at 7* ATDC so i know that the balancer is at least close if not right on.
I double checked the spark plug wires and firing order, they seem to be in order.
i guess i will have to keep hunting and get stuff to get double check the timing exactly

Good deal. At least your going in the right direction.

Another simple deal to rotate the motor by hand...pull all the plugs. I've actually rotated motors by doing that, then putting pressure on a fan belt at the crank pulley, turning it.

Bottom line...your looking for any 'mechanical' out of wack. Make sure all the mechanics line up as they should first. Crank, cam, valves. Just looking at possible probs on your timing chain, okay. If all that is good, and your ignition stuff is all correct, take a look at your dist drive shaft. Possible prob there, if something broke loose, and slipped. Past that...

 

[Hemi Rebel]

Try another timing light

 

[Green72Runner]

I found the problem and thought i would post for any future people searching this. A old friend who has owned more Mopars than i have years of age said he had the same problem on a Chevy and fixed it finally when he switched the coil, Guess what that is what fixed mine too. We even briefly checked it for leaking oil but when i took it out it had a munch of oil where it wasn't easy to see/ feel while on the car. put in a different coil and the car instantly allowed be to put it at 10* base timing and starts and runs fine. I never would have thought a coil would cause these symptoms. Moral of the story if you have extras try swapping all the easy ignition parts before spending 10+ hours like i did.

Thanks for all your help and responses it def helped me eliminate causes

 

[69a100]

Live and learn, glad you got it figured out.

 

[charger360]

new one for me I have had coils go bad it usually is a slow process. good to know