Hemi Superbird Controversy

[Cncguy1]

Lets take this one step further. Lets say you have a super rare Hemi or 6 pack or whatever car and its a matching number car and complete but, so damn rusted you can walk through it. This car is 1 of 1. You have the same body style body laying around that is clean and very rust free. How many of you would use the clean body to save the more valuable car? I for one would transfer all the numbers over and "save" the car. The car doesnt know any better. I would never hide it or misrepresent what I had done.

Lets say you have a pick up you have had for a few years and, you love this truck and, want to continue to drive this truck. Because of rust or just damage you decide to replace the cab from another truck. This cab was assinged a different vin# when it was new and, it didnt start out life as your truck but, this is acceptable and, happens all the time and, if its an antique or collectable truck is almost common practice for a rusty cab. What makes this correct over our cars? Because the truck sits on a frame and its the original frame? The drivetrain is what made most of these cars valuable, the body is the house around it. I understand this will get some people fired up....lol

The Truck who cares it has little value but the car your talking about increasing the value between 6 and 7 figures. I wouldn't want to invest my money in a car that's numbers sat in some dudes desk for 20 years or more. If your doing it for yourself leave the numbers off and build the 1 of 1 your dreaming of, or the one some dude dreamt of in the 60's.

 

[BeatersRus]

Lets take this one step further. Lets say you have a super rare Hemi or 6 pack or whatever car and its a matching number car and complete but, so damn rusted you can walk through it. This car is 1 of 1. You have the same body style body laying around that is clean and very rust free. How many of you would use the clean body to save the more valuable car? I for one would transfer all the numbers over and "save" the car. The car doesnt know any better. I would never hide it or misrepresent what I had done.

Lets say you have a pick up you have had for a few years and, you love this truck and, want to continue to drive this truck. Because of rust or just damage you decide to replace the cab from another truck. This cab was assinged a different vin# when it was new and, it didnt start out life as your truck but, this is acceptable and, happens all the time and, if its an antique or collectable truck is almost common practice for a rusty cab. What makes this correct over our cars? Because the truck sits on a frame and its the original frame? The drivetrain is what made most of these cars valuable, the body is the house around it. I understand this will get some people fired up....lol

the drivetrain belongs to the Original body chassis imo.
example,which would you buy first
a 440 car with non original motor but complete and running for 20k
or
a 440 car with original drivetrain non running but the car was rebodied years ago? for 20k

personally,i would never buy a rebody because of the issues that could possibly come up later.
but thats just my opinion.

 

[alfaitalia]

Surely its not a matter of "opinion" whether its a rebody or not....as I understand it its against US federal law to rebody a car (put one vin on another body or a body built up from parts either new or used)…..so what ones thinks about doing it is surely irrelevant. Its illegal here.....but most of the time it would take a real expert to know if its happened! You can buy a MGB shell here brand new as a replica....seen many of them with late 60s/early 70s vin....and they are not difficult to tell apart (originals have ripples on the upper fender seam if you care!!)….only ever heard of one conviction for it.....

 

[plymouth67]

Let me throw this out there. I know a car, Hemi 4spd Charger. The guy who owns it has had is the second owner of the car and has had it since the car was 2 years old. In his early years he was very hard on it and, bounced it off a couple telephone poles. When he restored the car the firewall was buckled. He bought another car and sectioned the front of the car..frame rails, fender aprons, core support, firewall, front footwells and the a pillars. He cut his front end of and put the new front on the car. I dont think of his car being any less of a Hemi Charger.

I own a car right now that only retains the original roof, doors, one frame rail and the top portion of the cowl. Are these cars ok?

I understand the legality of the situation but, if you replace the dash in your post 67 car your removing the vin tag and transferring on to a better piece. I'm not saying to go out and do a bunch of vin# swapping but, these cars are getting harder to come by. The action of switching things to a rust free shell is not adding numbers to the total cars built, its just keeping one more alive.

I see both sides of the argument but, it seems to be a double standard that its ok the take a rusty, beat up, rolled over, caved in car and replace every piece of sheet metal on it and its ok but, if you take a better car and switch things over, ts not. I find it crazy to think if you took the clean car and drilled out all the spot welds and re-spot weld everything around a few stamped numbers is ok.

 

[biomedtechguy]

The action of switching things to a rust free shell is not adding numbers to the total cars built, its just keeping one more alive.

THIS! and I say great. One more saved, one more out there being shared and enjoyed.

 

[Slap Stick]

There is a difference between repairing a car with new body panels and taking the parts with the VIN and repurposing them to a completely different body.
One is the original car that's been repaired. The other is a completely different car.

For instance I was at a car show and there was a late 50s DeSoto. Beautiful car. Looking closer it had a 5.9 Magnum engine. Then looking inside the interior was DeSoto but the dash was 97 up Dakota.
Come to find out it was a DeSoto body on a Dakota frame.
Now...which is it-DeSoto or Dakota?
Btw, I would own it in a heartbeat.

 

[70chall440]

This comes up on every forum like clockwork. As I see it we are talking about 3 situations;

- first is what was on the video where they completely rebuild a car using all new sheet metal. I have zero problem with that, you are rebuilding a car that already exists.

- second is moving the VIN from a bad car over to a good car. I agree that this is illegal in that you are swapping VIN and basically what chop shops did/do to steal cars.

- third is taking all of the parts off a good car to put onto a bad car (which is the same as #1 except using original/used parts). I have zero issue with this at all.

People who piss and moan about this say things like "rebody, clone, fake, etc" and seem to be worried about the value of the breed... complete BS. If you are resurrecting a car that exists then good on you, but if you are moving the VIN over (probably an easier way to go) then you are breaking the law, so thats your cross to bear.

Maybe another way to look at is as a consumer; if I were going to buy a car and the guy told me that the car was basically destroyed/rotted but they brought it back by putting all new sheet metal or even good metal from a donor, I would check the build over to make sure it wasn't done sloppily but in the end if it was done right (like AMD does) I wouldn't have any issues with it. It would be like buying a brand new car. However, if I was looking at a car and I found out that someone had switched the VIN, then I would walk away.

So I would ask this to any of you haters out there; if you had the Daytona and the money, you would leave it rot in the yard? If you can honestly say yes, then I feel for you.

 

[dadsbee]

We've come a LONG way since the days when we'd shame a guy out of a car show for cloning a GTX from a Satellite in the '70's !

 

[70chall440]

Probably worth adding that fortunately doing something like this is possible, it wasn't all that long ago when it wasn't. People are bringing back cars now that would not have even been parts cars 20 years ago.

 

[biomedtechguy]

Just so I understand correctly what is the story of this car, have the VIN tag and stampings been moved from the original car over to another 70 Satellite Roadrunner?

 

[biomedtechguy]

By the way, there are some major features of this car that I'd love to have on a Superbird clone. Transmission (in that it's a 5 speed OD, and if anyone has knowledge of that particular brand, Keisler regarding strength and durability, please share. If I recall correctly, they aren't that great, but the description in Classic Industries "sounds" impressive...?) rack and pinion steering, high tech suspension, roll bar that isn't hideous looking, 572 Gen 2 HEMI, Dana 60 w/Moser and 3.54 gears.
I have posted about my thoughts on what I'd like in a Superbird or Daytona tribute car: best 4 wheel disc brakes, best available front and rear suspension for high speed and handling, Dana 60 w/3.54 gears and a 5 or 6 speed OD manual transmission. Now I am a huge fan of the Gen 2 Hemi, and that would normally be my preference, but for a 'bird or Daytona, I would be more inclined to go with a Gen 3 Hemi with EFI and twin turbos, for maximum power WITH reliability (not that that can't be achieved with a Gen 2 Hemi)
Basically everything conducive to extreme high speed capabilities and reliability, with the suspension and brakes to provide as much safety as possible in a car that would go over 200 MPH.
Just throwing this out here, because winged cars are the things my sweetest car dreams are made of when it comes to highway high speed top end superstars.

 

[70chall440]

Just so I understand correctly what is the story of this car, have the VIN tag and stampings been moved from the original car over to another 70 Satellite Roadrunner?

The story seems to be that someone is saying that the original car was rebuilt on/with parts from a 69 GTX, but here again, its a "story" based on some posts in other forums. Just because its in some registry that way doesn't make it true or untrue.

 

[biomedtechguy]

The story seems to be that someone is saying that the original car was rebuilt on/with parts from a 69 GTX, but here again, its a "story" based on some posts in other forums.

Thanks, I saw that on the typed registry page, but I wasn't sure.

 

[70chall440]

By the way, there are some major features of this car that I'd love to have on a Superbird clone. Transmission (in that it's a 5 speed OD, and if anyone has knowledge of that particular brand, Keisler regarding strength and durability, please share. If I recall correctly, they aren't that great, but the description in Classic Industries "sounds" impressive...?) rack and pinion steering, high tech suspension, roll bar that isn't hideous looking, 572 Gen 2 HEMI, Dana 60 w/Moser and 3.54 gears.
I have posted about my thoughts on what I'd like in a Superbird or Daytona tribute car: best 4 wheel disc brakes, best available front and rear suspension for high speed and handling, Dana 60 w/3.54 gears and a 5 or 6 speed OD manual transmission. Now I am a huge fan of the Gen 2 Hemi, and that would normally be my preference, but for a 'bird or Daytona, I would be more inclined to go with a Gen 3 Hemi with EFI and twin turbos, for maximum power WITH reliability (not that that can't be achieved with a Gen 2 Hemi)
Basically everything conducive to extreme high speed capabilities and reliability, with the suspension and brakes to provide as much safety as possible in a car that would go over 200 MPH.
Just throwing this out here, because winged cars are the things my sweetest car dreams are made of when it comes to highway high speed top end superstars.

I always wanted a SB or Daytona clone and in fact when I bought my 70 RR that was my plan, however in my case the car was already so heavily modified with a tilt front end that I just didn't want to go the SB route. Those wing cars were considered ugly back in the day and hard to sell, but of course today they are highly sought after. They are cool but I am not willing to spend the money to make one (let alone buy one). The Petty car that was built for auction is super cool and I agree, if I was able to build one with all modern components, that could be very cool.

 

[plymouth67]

So, its ok to basically rebuild a car around a vin# and fender tag replacing every piece of sheet metal...that in no way would have the correct numbers stamped in the core or trunk gutter is ok.

I get it but, i really think this has become so taboo for the reasons of it being illegal in most states (maybe all) and, because of the devious intentions of car thieves and chop shops. I feel as if this was done properly with intention in saving a rare car and, inspected by a certified 3rd party it should be legal.

I understand that if you own a 1 of 3 car then everyone that falls off the face of the earth makes yours more valuable.

When rolling down the assembly line that body didn't have any idea what it was going to be until the vin#, fender tag and, build sheet went on it. Until that point they were all the same.

 

[70chall440]

I would say that the answer is yes, it is ok to rebuild a car replacing all of the sheet metal if you have the VIN and title for that car. The legality of this I do not believe is an issue although many love to throw that out there. Basically the law says that you cannot remove the VIN, so that means when you remove the dash you are breaking the law. But.. (someone will add) the body stampings are still there so you are good... well while the body stampings are a method of confirming that the front and back of the car are the same, they are not the VIN, only the plate on the dash is the VIN. So, if you put new sheet metal onto a car and you have the VIN plate/dash you are rebuilding the car. If you put the dash & VIN into another car you are reboding the car.

Look there is always going to be someone who doesn't like something but I would reiterate that if any one of us had a real daytona and the money to rebuild it using all new metal, I find it hard to believe someone would not do it.

 

[Durandal25]

I feel that there are 2 categorizes for theses cars. Survivor, and restored. I would put this car in the restored category and sleep well on it.

As you know, I'm putting the MN Gold back together using some OEM metal and parts ect. Since the car is 95% original after all the parts are installed, I'm content with the survivor title. I'm an amateur, but a concourse restoration is better than new.....so.....there you are.

 

[Durandal25]

Kind of like this one! Maybe too far gone?
View attachment 1002134

....lol, yes and no....two more rust flakes and you have Barrett Jackson car there, sir.

 

[Budnicks]

as long as all the swaps & rebody-ing is above board
a total sheet-metal change,
(IMO it really isn't an Org car)
it's done all the time too, AMD or GYC does several a year
& not trying to pull something over
when it's moved on, I see no real issues

as long as they are NOT cutting out stamping,
radiator support, trunk surround, any cowl stampings
&/or swapping out dashes with a different VIN's

ormade up fendertags dashes etc.
**** like this

& welding them into another completely different car
& it's a felony by the way to do the latter

not all rusted up hulls are the same

I hate frauds or cars that are represented as such
no matter the value of the car, it's VIN or FENDER TAG

this argument will never be settled

IMHFO you can't & shouldn't always save them all
some are just way too far gone
people get really emotional about this subject

where do you draw that proverbial line ?
what is the extent to replace, when it still is that Org. car ?

BUT;
it's one thing to replace a roof skin
or add a couple of quarter
or add a couple of the front fenders
or add the doors
or add the hood
or add all-new glass & hardware
or add all new interior
or add an all new dash
add a few frame rails
how much of it is aftermarket reproductions ? NOW

seems like it's not the same car anymore

How much of the Org. sheet metal should be still left ?
(or frame & firewall, inner fenders, cowl, roof, rad. support etc.)
for it is, being considered the same car ?
or how much value is still there to the Org. car ?
without a series of full disclosures ?
telling what you did/replaced

IMO it's only Original once, you basically just rebodied it
not just repaired it, you replaced it
too each "Their own opinions", that's mine

 

[Nate S]

I always love these discussions. There are multiple valid points of course. I think of a couple things:
-If it was 1969 and you rolled your GTX over (and lived) with enough money the body shop would have bought a body-in-white and done the swap, no question. Is that car still a GTX?
-If a re-body was done well enough so that neither you nor Galen nor the Pope could tell the difference, does it matter?

I like the comment above that there are survivors and restored cars and that they are not the same thing.