Holley 3310 tuning help on a fresh 440

[moparedtn]

Don't be afraid of spark advance with these low compression big blocks, especially with the purple cams. They eat it up. For reference I have a 71 383 with 8.5:1 static compression and a .484 purple. I get 10hg vac and run 40 total with vacuum advance on 93 octane, so you are in the ballpark. Go out for a drive with your tools and advance until it pings, then back off. Once you have it running well, if it doesn't ping going up a hill then you are good. Its nice having the distributor on the front of the block!

congrats on your new car and have fun getting it back on the road!

Thanks much, I appreciate that.

I've had this one for about 4 years, but this is the first time with the replacement engine (the 440 it came with was a "race" motor that was just too much for my limited abilities to tune).
Basically, it has sat in my garage over that time with me fooling with it as energy/strength allowed (I've had cancer twice in that time period - that crap tries to kill ya. I wouldn't recommend it. ;-)).

I swapped out that motor for this one early this year, first time I've done that alone in 25+ years.
Also wouldn't recommend that. ;-)
The car now has this "new" motor, a rebuilt A-833, new 3.55 Richmond gears in a replacement 489 case w/SureGrip and the interior and such has all been redone. My wife has been supportive in this and humors my cussing and spending on it, bless her.

It has been a long journey, all this. The car has been my holy grail of sorts, motivation to keep kicking when it seemed at times that life wanted me dead. You all helping me here has been a blessing and I miss my old Mopar buddies from decades ago (shout out to the Northeast Hemi Owners, for example).
This time around, it's just me, doing what I can when I can.

The way I figure it, I got one more good shot at putting one of these together and making it work.
Something told me this website with you all on it would be the place to ask for help. Looks like I was right.
THANKS, y'all. I'll update next time I get out there and wrestle with it again.

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

(I've had cancer twice in that time period - that crap tries to kill ya. I wouldn't recommend it. ;-)).

Thanks for the heads up mate, and well done on keeping your humor intact!

I'm sure I'm not alone here in that I would love to hear more about how your getting on with your GTX.

 

[moparedtn]

Thanks for the heads up mate, and well done on keeping your humor intact!

I'm sure I'm not alone here in that I would love to hear more about how your getting on with your GTX.

Appreciate the sentiment much. ;-)
Funny you should mention that...had to take a bit of a sabbatical these last - good Lord, has it been over 3 WEEKS?? - since last I posted.

Time flies in hospitals.
Not.
Had a bit of a setback health-wise. I reckon it's not fun for the man upstairs if something doesn't try to kill me every so often. Hey, you know He's got a sense of humor though, right? I must amuse the heck outta him; at least that's what I tell the docs every time they say "you dodged another bullet" or some such medical rhetoric.

You gotta have a sense of humor when this stuff comes after you, otherwise you'll go nuts or worse...give up.
That ain't in me.

Anyways, I'm home now and time to get back to the GTX. This weekend I'll try out all the great tips I've gotten from you guys so far. Anyone have a suggestion on what brand of timing tape to use on a stock balancer? Where to get it from?
How to get it to stick to the damn thing? ;-)

Thanks for hanging in there with me. I WILL see this through, come hell or high water.

 

[440+6]

Glad your back at it, I personally don't use the tape but prefer a dial back timing light.
I have a .484 mopar cam in my 440 and initial is 20 deg, everyone is correct that you need to get your timing set before you start messing with the carb because timing will affect your vacuum at idle quite a bit.

 

[charger360]

the guy's are all on the right track. timing first always when tuning! with that cam I would think 20 initial and 34-36 total mechanical advance. then dial in the vac advance if you use it. you can't tune a carb worth a dam till you get your timing set. you can always get a dial back timing light if you don't want to use tape

 

[moparedtn]

Ok y'all, finally got out there for a bit this evening. I have to pick my spots with this,
since I'm working with #$^$#^ limited energy levels these days. Work takes most of
it out of me anymore...

anyways, I pulled off the float bowls first and following coloradodave's advice, used a 1/4"
drill bit to set float heights. Whaddaya know, that puts the seams on the floats right at the
bottom of the sight plug holes. ;-)
That made me feel better, even though the front bowl has a brass float and the rear is
phenolic. What the heck, on a new carb no less.

Once I got that back together and got her warmed up a bit, I started on the timing issue.
I had a vacuum gauge hooked up as well as my trusty old timing light, started jacking up
the timing a bunch while watching vacuum.

Got a best vacuum reading of around 11-12psi with the timing approaching 20BTC like y'all
said. That also allowed me to drop the idle screw on the Holley a little bit and lo and behold,
the engine started actually acknowledging my adjusting the mixture screws, too.
That told me the throttle blades had closed enough to enable the idle circuit to start working
like it should, even though I wasn't able to do much better on vacuum.
Wound up 2 turns out on both sides for mixture. Still seems like a lot, but whatever works.

Real test was shutting it off hot, then going right back to cranking.
No sweat, she turned over fine and hit first lick the couple times I tried it hot, no throttle input needed.
I'll take that as a good sign, too. ;-)

I'm taking a week off work (yes, doc's orders to "get out of that damn pickup for a while").
I've got the parking brake assembly out of it, a replacement coming from a fellow member here.
I've got a bunch of wiring issues in the instrument panel to play with, too. God, I hate wiring.
Bottom line is, PROGRESS.
Thanks to you all.

Until the next update, THANKS!
Ed

 

[moparedtn]

Slight update-
Decided to try a cold start today and it almost kicked back on me; reckon that meant ok, too much timing. ;-)
Backed it off a bit and it turned over fine again.
It seems like it starves right off idle when throttle is applied still, though.
I'm guessing I'm to the power valve/jetting part of this process now?

 

[moparedtn]

Sunday 8/17:
Well, after all this I'm still at the same point in all this.
No matter what timing I set it at, the thing will not smoothly take the throttle.
It acts to me like it's starving; I go to rev it up, even under no load, and it stumbles,
then as it picks up rpms it falls on its' face until I pump the accelerator.
All this is magnified even worse when cold, so I keep thinking it's way lean.

Odd part is while it's idling, it will about run you out of the garage from fumes.
You literally can't stand to be behind it when it's running.
I'm beyond frustrated here - can't anyone recommend jetting/pump/power valves here
to at least get me in the ballpark?

 

[charger360]

well jets should be between 72-76 or so the pv stock is the 6.5 I would run a 4.5 or so. did you check the vacuum in gear? and does the idle speed drop off much in gear? 2 turns out in the idle mixture screws is not the end of the world. is there any free play in you acc pump at idle? it should give a shot of gas the second you touch the throttle. what squirter do does it have I would run about a 31 or so to start with that. good luck

- - - Updated - - -

oh yeah I am not a big fan of the newer orange boxes I have had a lot of issues with them if you have another box give it a try it is cheap and easy and you never know! new does not mean good anymore!

 

[moparedtn]

well jets should be between 72-76 or so the pv stock is the 6.5 I would run a 4.5 or so. did you check the vacuum in gear? and does the idle speed drop off much in gear? 2 turns out in the idle mixture screws is not the end of the world. is there any free play in you acc pump at idle? it should give a shot of gas the second you touch the throttle. what squirter do does it have I would run about a 31 or so to start with that. good luck

- - - Updated - - -
oh yeah I am not a big fan of the newer orange boxes I have had a lot of issues with them if you have another box give it a try it is cheap and easy and you never know! new does not mean good anymore!

Yep, stock jets are 72 primary and the metering block on secondaries is the equivalent of 76.
Power valve is a 6.5. I have about 11-12psi vacuum @ idle, so that's in the neighborhood.
Might could stand to go with a 5.5 except I don't think it's dumping any fuel @ idle - in fact, the mixture screws do kill the engine when run all the way in and the engine does respond to adjustments there, so my idle circuit is working.

There's no checking vacuum in gear since it's a 4 speed.
Accelerator pump has zero play off idle, verified.
The squirter is a 31 from the factory, hasn't been changed.
I've never even given the orange box a second thought, come to think of it.

My old man shadetree skills are all screaming at me that this dang things' problems are carburetor-related.
My having to pedal the thing to get it to rev up ("pump the gas pedal") and the fact it won't smoothly hold a given rpm (say, 3000 for example) without fluttering all over the place and me pumping the gas tells me that.
Everything else seems willing - it just acts starved everywhere except idle, where it fumes me up bigtime.

Thanks for trying to help! I don't know where to go now, other than start swapping jets and squirters and such....

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

It's great to read you're making progress!

I know bugger all about Holleys, but the first one I owned 25 years ago on a 360 with a big cam had the same problem, and needed the idle air bleeds drilled larger.

Holley experts, please:smilie_help:

 

[moparedtn]

Thanks, Frank. Appreciate that. ;-)
Yes please, can ANYONE tell me what jets/PV/squirters they wound up with on this combination?
PLEASE?
The idle is about all that actually IS working sort of right on the thing now.

 

[moparedtn]

Update 9/14:
Wow, everyone seems to have abandoned ship on me here.
In case anyone is still watching, today I discovered that the Holley had shipped from the factory with 70's on the primary side.
Yes, 70's.
No friggin idea what's up there, since they're supposed to have 72's.

Anyways, I installed a set of 75's on the primary side and things started getting better real quick.
Imagine that. ;-)
Checked over everything on idle mix/vacuum/timing, etc. again and took it down the road.
It took the accelerator much better, we're getting somewheres...
but it still surged/bucked at any mid-throttle or full boogy throttle.

Back to the shop, went over everything again. Started playing with the timing while trying to hold a steady 3000rpm or so, adjusting distributor whilst doing so. Found out I had TOO MUCH timing, dialed it back to about 12-14BTC initial.
Down the road again, a little better, still not terribly smooth under throttle.

Back to the shop and disconnected the $%^# vacuum advance hose from the carb and plugged it off.
Back down the road and OH HELL YES THAT'S BETTER.
Car smoothed out so much I started noticing all the other problems with steering and such. ;-)

So...progress, when my heart really needed some in order to stay motivated with the car.
It still starts breaking up a little at full pull and high rpm, but I figure that's gotta be starvation on the secondary side of the carb, eh? Since it is a vac sec, I reckon that means a different metering plate. No worries there.
Might even be ignition issues still, but I think I'm in the neighborhood with that.

Time to dial this thing in and get to the other parts that need attention.
I'm going back in the hospital on the 24th and I'm running out of time here.
Thanks for at least taking the time to read all this stuff, guys. Good to know someone's out there.
Ed

 

[twinscrew698]

Ed
I do read this thread every time something is posted as i somewhat interested in learning things as i had this problem too and think i got down a little closer to driving my Super Bee with a lot mores smile on my face!
This might interest you for adjusting your total advance and must be followed thru completely as it does help with total timing and such.
I know it is for converting a Dist to electronic but on page 5 tell`s ya how to adjust for performance.
http://www.dippy.org/upgrade/ignition.pdf
I hope you can get to it and read it as it explains very well step by step instructions.
It works on all Mopar dist with the hex vacuum advance.(Adjusting the dist with 3/32 allen wrench)
Hope all goes well with ya on your next trip to the Hospital.

 

[moparedtn]

Ed
I do read this thread every time something is posted as i somewhat interested in learning things as i had this problem too and think i got down a little closer to driving my Super Bee with a lot mores smile on my face!
This might interest you for adjusting your total advance and must be followed thru completely as it does help with total timing and such.
I know it is for converting a Dist to electronic but on page 5 tell`s ya how to adjust for performance.
http://www.dippy.org/upgrade/ignition.pdf
I hope you can get to it and read it as it explains very well step by step instructions.
It works on all Mopar dist with the hex vacuum advance.(Adjusting the dist with 3/32 allen wrench)
Hope all goes well with ya on your next trip to the Hospital.

How awesome is THAT? Thanks so much for this! Man, those instructions should be stickied here or something!
Thanks for taking the time to help and for the kind words. Next round of scanning and testing is the 20th, then
again on the 26th.
Have been fighting hard lately - more worried about what all this is doing to the wife.
Me, in some warped way, I'm getting sort of used to it. Just something else to put up with.
Others got it worse, I'm sure.
Ed

 

[twinscrew698]

No Problem on instructions moparedtn.
As i see it,every little bit of info can help or at least teach me something even if it is not my problem.
Hang in there and good luck!

 

[biginch=bigfun]

Hang tough Ed!

I have the same issues with my road runner but it has to wait while I finish a project car for my parents...I'm learnig WAY more about 40's chevrolet's than I ever was interested in knowing!

Anyway, god speed & good luck,
Louis

 

[Garys1969RR]

Slight update-
Decided to try a cold start today and it almost kicked back on me; reckon that meant ok, too much timing. ;-)
Backed it off a bit and it turned over fine again.
It seems like it starves right off idle when throttle is applied still, though.
I'm guessing I'm to the power valve/jetting part of this process now?

I had a 3310 Holley 780 on my 451 that always stumbled off idle. Come to find out, when the choke mechanism was removed, it exposed a vacumn port on the side of the carb. Once I plugged that, it worked great! So if you have removed the choke, then check the choke pull off vacumn port. Good luck in your battle with the bad stuff.

 

[GTX MATT]

Plugging the vacuum advance is just helping to bandaid something else you've got going on.

IMO, you may be getting something out of the idle circuit, but I bet its still kind of far off of it on the primary side. Take the carb off, flip it upside down, and look at how much of the transfer slots are exposed in the "idle"position. It should look like a square. Take a pic and post it up if you can. I believe you are far off the true idle position, and your accelerator pump arm may need adjustment to compensate for it as well.

Also, you do want to get back closer to 20 degrees initial. You're going to need to recurve your distributor (using lighter advance springs as well). What distributor is in it? We'd be glad to keep you going on the right track. The 509 cam is nothing too crazy but its always been enough cam to require some careful tuning and recalibrating.

P.S. what is the rest of the engine build? If running manifolds you'd probably do better with a smaller cam.

 

[64SF]

Had a very similar problem with a very similar build. Ended up replacing the power valve with a 4.5 and drilling a 1/8" hole in each throttle plate. Idles now with the throttle screw completly backed out, eyes don't burn anymore. Also current timing is set at 12 degrees initial. Don't know if this helps but it worked for me.