I worked on those FMTVs in Afghanistan. Very cool armored vehicle that can be outfitted/ configured to just about any purpose.
I'm going to slam college education.
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The last ten years or so, of my
career, I had full control of projects.
material selections, welding
processes, interactions with clients
and vendors, even had a general or
two looking over my shoulder to
see what the army was paying for,
and was responsible for deadlines
on project completions. The ME I
worked with (not for) only had to sign
off on completed projects.
And, I made more $ than he did as I
got time and a half for anything over
8 hrs, and he was salaried.
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I really enjoyed working on that truck.
Most of my interaction was on that
armored cab, the gunners' seat, front
fenders (the doors needed to open
after an IED event), and the armor
mounting. (what is refered to as the
"B" kit).
Worked with a great group of people.
451Mopar
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I have no idea what the formal education system is teaching anymore? I just know it is overpriced.
The younger employees I work with seem single track minded to their trained field, and afraid to step out of line.
I was sort of the same when I was young, afraid to loose a job or rock the boat, but every time I did, I was better for it.
Each time I left a company. I got a better job. I was sort of "fired" from one job after I gave them my two-week notice I was leaving. I knew that job was not going to last when I found their problem, documented it, sent them the report and ways to fix it, and there response was 'we don't care if the overloaded part continues to fail, we will just tell the vendor that it was bad and have then send us a new one.'
I don't mind being an employee (making six figures), I am not a people person, never wanted to run a business or be a manager. My father was a business owner, and most of his time was spent there. I was a manager for awhile, but felt like I wasn't doing much other than hiring, firing, and managing employees days off.
The younger employees I work with seem single track minded to their trained field, and afraid to step out of line.
I was sort of the same when I was young, afraid to loose a job or rock the boat, but every time I did, I was better for it.
Each time I left a company. I got a better job. I was sort of "fired" from one job after I gave them my two-week notice I was leaving. I knew that job was not going to last when I found their problem, documented it, sent them the report and ways to fix it, and there response was 'we don't care if the overloaded part continues to fail, we will just tell the vendor that it was bad and have then send us a new one.'
I don't mind being an employee (making six figures), I am not a people person, never wanted to run a business or be a manager. My father was a business owner, and most of his time was spent there. I was a manager for awhile, but felt like I wasn't doing much other than hiring, firing, and managing employees days off.
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I was in the market for a job a few years ago. Applied at a couple local machine shops. During the interviews I was told that their recent hires from the tech schools weren't working out. They couldn't even read a set of calipers. So what does that tell you? These schools are just pushing them through and grabbing the money. What a shame for the future.
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Same thing with truck driving schools. Graduates can qualify for a license, but can't drive. Silver lining is it forces companies to retain good older drivers, rather than forcing them out for younger replacements. Only reason I was able to keep working until I was 69.
mopar 3 B
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I have meet a few also that after four years I would not trust to engineer their was out of a paper bag.
Demonic
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I went through a 5 yr union apprenticeship and never looked back. Gave me a relatively comfortable middle class life, a solid education in books 6-9 at night, real life turning wrenches during the day.
I spent 10 years teaching in vocational school. If the public schools would use that as it should be used, it would really change the shape of our youth. However, in my case it was used as a dumping ground for kids that ofherwise would flunk out of school and the kids that really wanted to learn a trade were kept back at the home schools. It had nothing to do with the student's best interest and everything to do with money. I had to really change my recruiting technique to actually get students who were really interested in learning how to be a technician and make some money without the high cost of college. Eventually I succumbed to the horrible administration that was put in place at our school. Myself and about 6 others all left within 2 years. Wish I could have waited it out. It probably would have killed me by now tho.
The very successful voc ed schools had grade and attendance standards in place before you could apply, then make exceptions for those students who really wanted to learn the rrade but didn't do well in a traditional setting. Those programs produced so many viable technicians they overproduced techs and flooded the local areas to a point where it was nearly impossible to place students. This in an industry where in my area alone I am down 500+ techs.
Bottom line, I think trade education is an important training tool that ranks up there with college. Jmho.
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I have a close friend from the trucking industry who went the vocational school route over 30 years ago, against strong push back from his family. His grandfather was a Penn State professor, father was a local high school teacher. He hated the academically snobby environment of State College High School, and rejected college out of hand. He was smart, and a serious student, completed training in heavy equipment repair, served in the army until he was old enough to drive interstate, than spent 20 years as a truck driver, most of with his own truck. He is an ace mechanic and fabricator. Financially, he has eclipsed all but the top elites in the local academic community..
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chtampa
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Most of the people I know with a College Degree have jobs out of their field. The reason that a business hires someone that has graduated from college is that it demonstrates commitment and extra effort. The people that get hired for their chosen field are "Educators", and we all see how that works. The system works as it is designed and there is no reason to get upset about it. Go have a beer and throw a rock at the neighbors dog.
Detective D
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I have been saying what OP has for 25 years. Back then I was called crazy.
I have some things to say about this.
First, if you are over 50 years old, you don't get to apply how your life went to the current state. Everything is different, if your degree worked out for you good on you. When you went to school(or didn't) it cost a lot less then now, and it was fundamentally different. Don't take this personal. Everyone still wants to hear your story because people should learn from their elders. But tell your story, don't try to force the path you walked on others because the path has changed. Don't argue with those telling you how things are now.
Second, people need to realize college has changed. From a century ago, where it was 100% about discovering talented youth(or even adults) to further both the individual and society through the education and research done, to now, where it has become about laundering money, where students are processed like a factory, gleaning their funds.
Here is my perspective, as someone who was being pushed into college shortly after it had begun it's conversion from education to business.
I grew up in the midwest, YMMV. Sometime in the early 90's, college became a way for a certain group to gain not only public funds but gov't funding. Especially at the state school level, where their budget was largely supported by tax money, it turned into the same thing we see with many things now, a way to turn tax money into private money. During this time, entry requirements became more and more lax. Perhaps you could not get into a certain state school, but certainly one of the other state school locations would accept you. Fast forward to today, you can be a D average high school student and barely pass but you can go to college if you have the money. It has become what I call paper club, if you paid your dues you got a paper. Then, out in the work place, other paper club members will only want to hire others in the club, regardless of talent or experience or ability.
This progression is why terms like "college idiot" have come about. Modern day, being in paper club means nothing other then you had wealthy folks in the family or you went into big debt. it certainly is no indication of intelligence or ability, and will garner little to no respect from younger generations.
Of course there are exceptions, certainly hard sciences and medical fields require something beyond HS education. But that does not make up the majority of attainable degrees anymore. It can't. The bar for entry is so low the student body would not be able to complete all for years of paymen....I mean study to get those degrees. So numerous other pointless filler degrees are made where even those D students can make the 4 or 5 years of payments needed to complete.
Due to the nature of tax money funding much of the school, it is inevitable that political issues creep into the agenda. And so we have these places being referred to as indoctrination centers now. (note there is a similar funding path with grade school and high school)
Like many things in our current society college is something that should be a wonderful tool to build us all up like it used to be, but centralization and more and more government involvement have eroded it fundamentally into yet another form of churning tax money through the wringer into someone's pocket. Look at the "online" schools. Look at the TV ads they run, where the message is about "you are better" and a very heavily implied "you are better then someone else" that tries to coerce people to send them money so they can join paper club too. An emotional, self esteem aspect of it has been attached in a big way to this, because they need it to be able to continue social paper club "status". If that is removed, it would fall entirely on the actual education and ability as a reason to attend, and the house of cards would collapse.
I could add comments about the correlation between wealth and personal selfishness and how college education plays little part in that but this already is quite a long read.
I have some things to say about this.
First, if you are over 50 years old, you don't get to apply how your life went to the current state. Everything is different, if your degree worked out for you good on you. When you went to school(or didn't) it cost a lot less then now, and it was fundamentally different. Don't take this personal. Everyone still wants to hear your story because people should learn from their elders. But tell your story, don't try to force the path you walked on others because the path has changed. Don't argue with those telling you how things are now.
Second, people need to realize college has changed. From a century ago, where it was 100% about discovering talented youth(or even adults) to further both the individual and society through the education and research done, to now, where it has become about laundering money, where students are processed like a factory, gleaning their funds.
Here is my perspective, as someone who was being pushed into college shortly after it had begun it's conversion from education to business.
I grew up in the midwest, YMMV. Sometime in the early 90's, college became a way for a certain group to gain not only public funds but gov't funding. Especially at the state school level, where their budget was largely supported by tax money, it turned into the same thing we see with many things now, a way to turn tax money into private money. During this time, entry requirements became more and more lax. Perhaps you could not get into a certain state school, but certainly one of the other state school locations would accept you. Fast forward to today, you can be a D average high school student and barely pass but you can go to college if you have the money. It has become what I call paper club, if you paid your dues you got a paper. Then, out in the work place, other paper club members will only want to hire others in the club, regardless of talent or experience or ability.
This progression is why terms like "college idiot" have come about. Modern day, being in paper club means nothing other then you had wealthy folks in the family or you went into big debt. it certainly is no indication of intelligence or ability, and will garner little to no respect from younger generations.
Of course there are exceptions, certainly hard sciences and medical fields require something beyond HS education. But that does not make up the majority of attainable degrees anymore. It can't. The bar for entry is so low the student body would not be able to complete all for years of paymen....I mean study to get those degrees. So numerous other pointless filler degrees are made where even those D students can make the 4 or 5 years of payments needed to complete.
Due to the nature of tax money funding much of the school, it is inevitable that political issues creep into the agenda. And so we have these places being referred to as indoctrination centers now. (note there is a similar funding path with grade school and high school)
Like many things in our current society college is something that should be a wonderful tool to build us all up like it used to be, but centralization and more and more government involvement have eroded it fundamentally into yet another form of churning tax money through the wringer into someone's pocket. Look at the "online" schools. Look at the TV ads they run, where the message is about "you are better" and a very heavily implied "you are better then someone else" that tries to coerce people to send them money so they can join paper club too. An emotional, self esteem aspect of it has been attached in a big way to this, because they need it to be able to continue social paper club "status". If that is removed, it would fall entirely on the actual education and ability as a reason to attend, and the house of cards would collapse.
I could add comments about the correlation between wealth and personal selfishness and how college education plays little part in that but this already is quite a long read.
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.............................................................................. ethics
Double post some how?
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I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I have to disagree with the term 'college idiot' being a recent 'since 1990ish' term. I heard that term in 1975 from pretty much every blue collar coworker I ever worked with. My dad was a blue collar guy and made me swear to him on his deathbed I'd finish college. I did and I'm proud of my accomplishment. I work every day with very intelligent men and women who didn't go to college and I work with some that make you wonder how they figure out that breathing is required to stay alive.
I have lived and worked on bith sides of this debate and can't say either one is the 'best'. We get caught up in that. Do whatever is best for you, the individual as you have to live and work with your decision.
Other than that, you are spot on,
I have lived and worked on bith sides of this debate and can't say either one is the 'best'. We get caught up in that. Do whatever is best for you, the individual as you have to live and work with your decision.
Other than that, you are spot on,
mopar 3 B
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I presently have two grandsons in college. One has worked two years now in IT for a huge medical company. Sorry can't go into names.
The other will graduate with an engineering degree this spring. I am glad both went to college and neither are educated idiots. Our soon to be engineer nor his parents have ever spent a dime on tuition and he will graduate with honors.
We still live in a country where you get what you work for in most cases.
Our future is not that bleak. Their are still those that have paid out of pocket for their education and will impact their world. You need look no farther than whom servers you the next time you go out for a real meal or the kid helping a parent keep the family business afloat until quiting time after a day at school.
These are not the kids worshiped by the soccer mom dragging their kids off to every sporting event they want to participate in or school event they want to go to. Not that it is all bad.
The other will graduate with an engineering degree this spring. I am glad both went to college and neither are educated idiots. Our soon to be engineer nor his parents have ever spent a dime on tuition and he will graduate with honors.
We still live in a country where you get what you work for in most cases.
Our future is not that bleak. Their are still those that have paid out of pocket for their education and will impact their world. You need look no farther than whom servers you the next time you go out for a real meal or the kid helping a parent keep the family business afloat until quiting time after a day at school.
These are not the kids worshiped by the soccer mom dragging their kids off to every sporting event they want to participate in or school event they want to go to. Not that it is all bad.
451Mopar
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I did sort of go back to school in 2015. Night classes after work for Welding at Lincoln Tech. I was 52 and most of the students were 18-22?
I hope that I set an example of good work ethic for them. Got to class on time, ready to learn, stay busy welding, and after class, stayed and made sure to cleanup my work area and such.
At first, most of the kids would take long breaks, and leave as soon as they could, leaving a mess at their weld station.
First quarter (SWMA), I had the best grades and got some "gold" welding award / patch thing for best in class.
That seemed to be a wake-up call to about 1/3 of the kids. A few started coming in real early before class so they would have more practice time at the welding stations, and they also were more serious about the book/study part too. There were sill many just going through the motions, and two or three that just weren't going to make it.
Second quarter (MIG) I was second in class to a pretty smart kid, who was one who started coming in early and the practice paid off.
By the third quarter (TIG) about the same 5-6 kids who really were putting in the time were kicking my ***.
I hope that I set an example of good work ethic for them. Got to class on time, ready to learn, stay busy welding, and after class, stayed and made sure to cleanup my work area and such.
At first, most of the kids would take long breaks, and leave as soon as they could, leaving a mess at their weld station.
First quarter (SWMA), I had the best grades and got some "gold" welding award / patch thing for best in class.
That seemed to be a wake-up call to about 1/3 of the kids. A few started coming in real early before class so they would have more practice time at the welding stations, and they also were more serious about the book/study part too. There were sill many just going through the motions, and two or three that just weren't going to make it.
Second quarter (MIG) I was second in class to a pretty smart kid, who was one who started coming in early and the practice paid off.
By the third quarter (TIG) about the same 5-6 kids who really were putting in the time were kicking my ***.
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Glad to see you set an example. They
recognized they too, will 52 years old
some day. Hat's off....
I think what the main theme in this thread is that kids going to school racking up huge debt to graduate with a gender studies degree or social justice degree, or liberal arts degree, all of which prepare you for absolutely nothing in this world is a huge waste of money and time. For example, 60 years ago, a business management degree from a good university would get you an entry level management job at a factory or some other manufacturing place, now, it's a guaranteed spot at McDonalds. Things have changed. We need more kids to go into the trades for sure.
And congrats on your grandkids success.
padam
Well-Known Member
If you have a young person interested, Grobb is offering apprenticeships in western Ohio. Looks like a great opportunity.
I’ve done both: tool and die apprenticeship and later an associate degree. The apprenticeship was harder. It was really hard to get one back then and even now few companies offer them. 40 years ago if you didn’t perform or keep up your night school grades the company would fire you at the drop of a hat. Pay was crappy (less than non-apprentices doing the same work.) Hours were long, you had to do crap jobs and were treated like a dog.
College, I think anyone can get into some sort of school. Sit in class and do book work. Too bad I hate sitting in class. But it doesn’t take any physical skill like skilled trades.
But, I think a college degree (bachelor and up) opens way more doors down the road.
I’ve done both: tool and die apprenticeship and later an associate degree. The apprenticeship was harder. It was really hard to get one back then and even now few companies offer them. 40 years ago if you didn’t perform or keep up your night school grades the company would fire you at the drop of a hat. Pay was crappy (less than non-apprentices doing the same work.) Hours were long, you had to do crap jobs and were treated like a dog.
College, I think anyone can get into some sort of school. Sit in class and do book work. Too bad I hate sitting in class. But it doesn’t take any physical skill like skilled trades.
But, I think a college degree (bachelor and up) opens way more doors down the road.
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