Interesting starter issue on the 69 Bee

[Durandal25]

Team,

I have a new situation where when I try to start the car, as in turn the key, you can see the power drain on the system, but no starter........after a moment or two, I reattempt and it starts.....this can happen randomly and last for several attempts before starting...... I replaced the starter, but the issue remains...I am leaning toward neutral switch....but relay may also be suspect.

 

[nm9stheham]

The NSS usually can be diagnosed by moving the shifter a bit when it does not start, and shifting the shifter handle up and down can make it start or not start. Sometimes the adjustment between the shifter and the internal position of the shifter spool in the trannie gets out of whack and you need to adjust the linkage.

Or the NSS can be erratic. or the relay as you noted. Finally, the ignition switch itself can get erratic; there is a seprate wire out of the ignition siwtch to the staret relay. And of course the wires can get erratic, and the connection through the bulkhead.

If you have a voltmeter or 12v test light or a wire jumper or 2, then this can be troubleshot and narrowed down. Let us know what you have and if you are willing to troubleshoot. (Otherwise, just start throwing parts at it.)

 

[Dennis H]

Automatic? Why was starter replaced. Had similar, was bulkhead connector.

 

[Durandal25]

Automatic? Why was starter replaced. Had similar, was bulkhead connector.

.....the starter was warrantied item, so I started their first, but I'll start with the switch and work back to the Ignition switch

 

[arizona satellite]

I agree with nm9stheham, I would check the NSS first, then move to the relay. of course we all know that our beloved Mopars are famous for bulkhead issues, the fact that it is an intermittent problem i would be checking the NSS and relay first.

 

[Durandal25]

..boom, starter relay seems to have been the culprit. Also, replacing it fixed an annoying issue with my tach needle dancing every time I hit the break pedal too......

 

[mopar 3 B]

NS would not cause a power drain unless the starter relay is bad as it grounds the relay so the solenoid energizes sending current to the starter. Look for a bad connection at the bulk head as previously sudjested.

 

[Dennis H]

Have someone try to spin it while you "adjust the bulkhead box to see if you can control it. It was an ah ha moment for me. Be careful.

 

[nm9stheham]

..boom, starter relay seems to have been the culprit. Also, replacing it fixed an annoying issue with my tach needle dancing every time I hit the break pedal too......

The last part is a new one LOL; glad it worked out.

 

[Durandal25]

....and, the issue returned: So, its my belief it is NS switch. Just tried to get the bastard out, and its really stuck in there......there is not some funky removal procedure for the switch? Counter clockwise?

 

[nm9stheham]

Before you go to all that trouble and find it is not the NSS, take the wire off of the starter relay that is going to the NSS (it is usually a small brown wire with a tracer color, and goes to the center postion on the NSS connector) and ground that starter relay terminal with a jumper. If the NSS is the culprit, then the car will start this way. You might want to try this for a few days to make sure it starts consistently with the NSS out of the circuit, but be careful as you will be bypassing the neutral safety start feature and can start in any gear this way.

 

[mopar 3 B]

Also if the switch on your trans only has 2 connections it is backup lights only for manual trans and ns switch is on clutch pedal. Automatics with 1 wire ns switch, with 3 wires ns and backup. Have yet to see an auto with 2 wires but does not mean it could not exist. Still would look for a bad connection or direct short in engine compartment.

 

[miller]

Suggest you carefully check all your positive side battery cables, and wiring. Kinda sounds like a shorted positive cable/wire on the start circuit.

 

[Durandal25]

team,

Thanks for the suggestions, but the switch is defiantly the issue, as I pulled it last night,.....and broke it off in the tranny, but from what I can tell, the plastics plunger casing froze to the sleeve and only the metal pinion was free....thus the issue was certainly contact related......but I'll know that when I get the dame thread segment out.....this has been real pisser.

 

[Durandal25]

Ok, its official this issue is pissing me off. So, after replacing the starter relay, starter and NSS switch I still have the issue. the thought occurred to me that maybe the battery was the issue, but no, full charge. I bypassed the ignition system put a jumper off the starter relay, just to get a clicking on the stater solenoid, but it will not turn over....this was a progressive issue, and not all of the sudden....what the hell am I looking at here and missing?'

 

[mopar 3 B]

Check the voltage at battery cable at the starter. Should be battery voltage. If ok connect jumper cable from battery ground to starter, jump from battery cable lug on starter to solenoid terminal on starter. If the starter turns you have a bad ground if not remove and repair or replace the new starter. If you warranty the new starter have them bench test the replacement before you leave the store.

 

[Durandal25]

Check the voltage at battery cable at the starter. Should be battery voltage. If ok connect jumper cable from battery ground to starter, jump from battery cable lug on starter to solenoid terminal on starter. If the starter turns you have a bad ground if not remove and repair or replace the new starter. If you warranty the new starter have them bench test the replacement before you leave the store.

....ok, so now that I've rested and sort of backed away for a bit...I started putting together some of the little clues to this issue. After taking the started off, again, I had it tested....it was good, so I inspected the teeth on the flywheel and noted some small shiny spots where you could obviously see where the starter tried to get onto the wheel....and that the starter shield was a bit bent....my new theory is that it must have been misaligned and periodically blocked the unit...I'm going to use some RTB to tack it in place and reinstall

 

[nm9stheham]

If this was the issue, you would have heard the starter grind against the ring gear. There will always be some shiny sport on the ring gear; the teeth will not line up perfectly part of the time and will depend on the bevels on the bendix gear to rotate the teeth when they hit the ring gear and allow them to slide in and engage. Misalignment results in a lot of starter grinding on the ring gear, not a no-cranking condition.

Save yourself some further grief and use a 12v test light to check the 12V going to the solenoid on the starter when you turn the key to START. If that shows up but you only get a click and no starter action, then the likely issue is that the solenoid disc inside the starter assembly is burned at spots and will make contact sometimes and other times not. Just a few tests on the bench may or may not show this. BTW how was it tested?

And let's go back to the basics and clenn up both battery terminals and the grounds to the engine, as Mopar 3B says. Your original post sasy you see a power drain on the system; what exactly does that mean?

 

[Durandal25]

If this was the issue, you would have heard the starter grind against the ring gear. There will always be some shiny sport on the ring gear; the teeth will not line up perfectly part of the time and will depend on the bevels on the bendix gear to rotate the teeth when they hit the ring gear and allow them to slide in and engage. Misalignment results in a lot of starter grinding on the ring gear, not a no-cranking condition.

Save yourself some further grief and use a 12v test light to check the 12V going to the solenoid on the starter when you turn the key to START. If that shows up but you only get a click and no starter action, then the likely issue is that the solenoid disc inside the starter assembly is burned at spots and will make contact sometimes and other times not. Just a few tests on the bench may or may not show this. BTW how was it tested?

And let's go back to the basics and clenn up both battery terminals and the grounds to the engine, as Mopar 3B says. Your original post sasy you see a power drain on the system; what exactly does that mean?

....if the shield issue is not the problem, then I'll go back to the other stuff, but I have to tell you, if the shield misses a bolt and slides in front of the starter, only partial engagement of the pinion will occur, which is why I'm tacking it down with the RTB....after it dries for a few more hours I'll let you know

 

[Durandal25]

.....ok, so the shield is not the issue, nor the terminals or the ground. This is a very weird issue indeed. I get 12.5v at the starter and it ticks, but won't fully engage....its acting like it cannot mesh with the fly-wheel to fully extend and engage...