Interesting starter issue on the 69 Bee

[Dennis H]

Time to change the thread title to piss-off from interesting. 2nd time it was nailed and it was not. Did you have someone yank on that bulkhead connector while attempting to spin the starter. No cost or parts changing for this. Cheap way to eliminate a cause. Pull the connectors off and see how filthy it is in there anyway. Do you have headlights when this occurs? Radio? Has it ever quit when running?

 

[Durandal25]

Time to change the thread title to piss-off from interesting. 2nd time it was nailed and it was not. Did you have someone yank on that bulkhead connector while attempting to spin the starter. No cost or parts changing for this. Cheap way to eliminate a cause. Pull the connectors off and see how filthy it is in there anyway. Do you have headlights when this occurs? Radio? Has it ever quit when running?

....well nailed meaning it started, then ran for a day or so, then crapped out....then, nadda. So, I will check the bulkhead out in a bit, but no issues with radio or headlights....I thought jumping from the relay would bypass all that....never quit while running

- - - Updated - - -

.....bulkhead harness looks great, all connection are solid

 

[Dennis H]

Gotta pull them apart from the firewall side to look. Just be careful, pull the connectors straight off. The top bank comes off easy, at least look at them. Spray them. Good luck. Keep us posted. Has it ever died after running.

 

[mopar 3 B]

This starter grounds to the trans. Paint is an insulator. If you have any on the trans to engine mounting surface or starter to trans or on the dust shield remove the paint. If the RTB the starter shield was attached with is an insulator it will have to be removed also. The starter is not getting good enough ground to function properly. This is why these parts are not factory painted. If this is the problem run a battery ground strap to one of the starter bolts and see if it works. Hope you did not paint the starter.

 

[Durandal25]

Team,

N paint on the starter, but tis started off a bit at a time.....I'l try a custom ground solution to eliminate it as a possibility.

 

[Cranky]

Are you using just the factory grounds on the car. Is there any paint underneath any of the attaching points?

 

[Durandal25]

Cranky,

Ground is good as far as i can tell. When I hook a tester up to the relay and the ground I get 12.5 volts.....

 

[Cranky]

Cranky,

Ground is good as far as i can tell. When I hook a tester up to the relay and the ground I get 12.5 volts.....

You can measure good voltage but if the system isn't carrying the amps, things won't work very well so make sure ALL connectors are paint free. Is your alternator gauge still hooked up? You will see it move to the discharge side when you turn the key to the on position and should see more of a discharge when you go to start and the starter engages. Are you seeing that even when the starter doesn't run? If the solenoid is moving you should also see that draw and should see even more if the starter is trying to spin but won't. I've seen starters bench test fine but won't work once in the car and have seen that many times in the past 45 years....and have had brand new starters do that too.....and it pisses me off when it happens lol

 

[Durandal25]

You can measure good voltage but if the system isn't carrying the amps, things won't work very well so make sure ALL connectors are paint free. Is your alternator gauge still hooked up? You will see it move to the discharge side when you turn the key to the on position and should see more of a discharge when you go to start and the starter engages. Are you seeing that even when the starter doesn't run? If the solenoid is moving you should also see that draw and should see even more if the starter is trying to spin but won't. I've seen starters bench test fine but won't work once in the car and have seen that many times in the past 45 years....and have had brand new starters do that too.....and it pisses me off when it happens lol

Well, I have tried several versions testing it, but the alt gauge is hooked up and draws almost to zero when truing to engage it, but sometimes the starter will click, and sometimes it will not...but I hear the relay clicking each time.

 

[Durandal25]

..ok, so pulled the starter again after talking to my friend at parts joint and he tested it again, but this time he noted that the bushings on the starter sound like crap, thus replaced it again....but tested the new one, and it sounded just fine....installed it, but still no go with the key....but, with the remote start it fired right up......progress at last....

 

[Durandal25]

....another observation here, but when turning the key to ignition, I hear the tick of the starter relay, bur I also note that the gas gauge drops to zero and the lights dim a bit......

 

[miller]

Shorted ignition switch?

 

[Durandal25]

Shorted ignition switch?

....I have a new switch on order, but does it ground to the frame like the dash cluster? So I figure the issue is a ground fault of some sort, but the symptoms are indeed leading me to the ignition switch...but from the fact that i get a ticking sound at the relay indicates that its functioning normally, but the gas gauge going to zero when the key is fully turned indicates a fault.....so possibly the switch?

 

[miller]

Yes, the switch ground is the same.

Just thinkng outloud...you do have the grounding strap, that goes from the engine to the firewall, right?
That electrical stuff is a pain!!! Sometimes a matter of chasing down every lead.

 

[Durandal25]

Yes, the switch ground is the same.

Just thinkng outloud...you do have the grounding strap, that goes from the engine to the firewall, right?
That electrical stuff is a pain!!! Sometimes a matter of chasing down every lead.

,,,,,I have three...

 

[Cranky]

....another observation here, but when turning the key to ignition, I hear the tick of the starter relay, bur I also note that the gas gauge drops to zero and the lights dim a bit......

fuel gauge should give you tank reading in acc or ign on.....

 

[nm9stheham]

The ignition switch output when in START disconnects many things that are connected in RUN or ACC. Don't waste time chasing this. Lights dimming a bit may or may not be significant but voltages need to be measured to see what this means.

The relay clicking says that the ignition switch is activating the start relay.

1. Get a voltmeter or 12V test light
2. Connect between ground and the following points one at a time in this sequence while turning the key to START and holding long enough to see if the thest light lights brightly or the meter moves to close to 12V:
a) Yellow wire to start relay
b) Large terminal on start relay (where several wires connect, including the one from the battery)
c) Large wire from start relay to starter AT THE RELAY END
d) Large wire from start relay to stater AT THE STARTER END
e) Directly on the case of the starter (not the adjacent engine block)
You have to do this sequence, as the wiring between point A and B may be the culprit.

Please report results and we can confrim or eliminate certain possible casues, and save wasted effort. If you want to PM on this, that is fine. If you want to get me on the phone, send me a PM and let's set up a time and figure it out live. I have not been replying for a while because no one can help throwing parts at a problem, only with troubleshooting.

 

[Durandal25]

****Update and Fix*****

Ok, so this was a real sock in the gut. Just go the new ignition switch and what a surprise, not the issue.....so, I went back to the basics. I started at the battery and more importantly the terminal. After hooking up a remote starter and trying to get the sucker to crank, I noted by accident, that when turning the positive cable just right, the sucker would crank.....so a terminal connection. After looking at a few more things...its the terminal.....errrah! That was a nut-buster!

 

[Cranky]

Oh man....but like you said, watch it be something stoooopid simple lol. Glad you found it. Now you have a few extra parts on the shelf to collect dust.

 

[SlinktRR]

Glad you got it. Thanks for posting the fix! That'll definitely help someone troubleshoot in the future.