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Is there a difference between the 440's in Passenger and Police Cars?

Michael_

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This Book:
https://www.amazon.de/Dodge-Plymouth-Chrysler-Police-1956-1978/dp/0879389583

Says (regarding to the 1978 Plymouth Fury with the 440 Engine)
The 440ci powered Mopar squads will always be remembered. They were the champions of the era when police officers gave pursuit regardless.
And everyone knew it. The squads were up to the task, too. These cars could do 130 to 150mph, and they had the cooling capacity to do it all day long.

So this leads me to the Question:
Are the 440's in Police Cars any different than those in Passenger Cars?
Or are these exactly the same engines just complemented with a better Radiator
and an added Oil Cooler (maybe some better fans, pumps etc.)?

I'm asking because i'm looking for a 1969 Dodge Charger RT with a 440 right now
(most likely cant afford a Hemi Car except its pretty cheap and in driver quality maybe) and want
to do exactly that. Driving 130 to 150mph all day long. Well not all day long but for longer periods of time.
So can i simply put in a Radiator and Oil Cooler (maybe some better fans, pumps etc.) with Police Car specs or better and have basically
the same equipment with the same performance as the police cars installed?
 
Have you looked into the aerodynamics of a '69 Charger at 130-150 mph?
I know from experience that a '73 Charger is stable at those speeds, but a '69?
Edit: Look at Winged Warriors. They have papers from Chrysler on aero testing cars from the '60s. Very intersting.
Edit: not winged warriors, but Aerowarriors.
 
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Well at the end of the day i will get all the answers when i finally have the car.
But its pretty hard sitting around doing nothing until this happens...

But when a 1969 Dodge Polara and 1978 Plymouth Fury (Police Cars with 440) can do speeds between 130-150mph
why do you think it should be a Problem with the 69 Charger? Just because of that set back grill?
 
I worked at a Dodge dealership in the late 70's. After 1971 the compression dropped on everything due to emissions. However, as I recall, there were special (heavy duty) versions of both engines and transmissions, rear end, suspensions, etc., that were specially ordered by various police forces. Before the emission crap I heard all kinds of stories of specially equipped vehicles that had custom setups with dual quad engines and so forth. I know that for a fact because I knew some policemen and also the mechanics that prepped the cars. My brother bought a 1970 Charger SE-RT from the son of a family dealership. That car was equipped with a 440x engine, (not the original). Although there still were special orders later on, they did not have options that the high compression vehicles.
 
The 68-69 Chargers lift dramatically at speeds above 130. Two things on the aerodynamics cause this. Both were addressed in the 69 Charger 500, with the rear window plug and the flush front grill. Many of the muscle Mopars were capable of those speeds, but few were really stable.
 
Yes, the grille and the backlight. A '69 Charger will easily go those speeds and more. But, do you want to feel like you are riding on the edge of disaster while doing it?
Buddy Baker said about a '68 NASCAR racer that at a 100 it started to feel funny, at 180 he would turn the wheels to go into a turn and nothing happened.
 
Here's some stuff from Aerowarriors.
'68 Charger: level 369 hp to go 180
nose down 3" 345 hp to go 180
CdA 9.52 level
CdA 8.79 3" nose down
 
Well i know that a 69 Charger RT with a 440 can do those speeds.
But what i dont know for sure (if you ask different people you get different answers) is if the Factory Stock cooling is sufficient enough for doing it for longer periods of time without overheating issues.

I know the Hemi Cars had Heavy Duty Cooling and the Police Cars also did.
Also there was a Trailer Towing Package for the non Hemi Chargers that basically also adds HD Cooling.

So i hope the Engines in Police and Passenger Cars are the same and the Police Cars just had Upgraded Cooling in form of HD Radiator, Oil Cooler and so on.

As far as Areodynamics go i hope it feels stable enough without modification because i like the set back grill from the 69' and also the non Fastback rear.
I dont really like the looks of the Charger 500.
Well the Daytona car looks pretty good actually but still not as good as the normal Charger RT.

Maybe adding the Daytona Wing would already help enough?
Does not look to bad on a normal Charger. :)

64915627_5377962191532_Original.jpg
 
And pulling the rear window out of the recess it sits in at 150. Even though I have had my 68 Rt into the 140 range the suspension was purchased to do it. Anything above that and the windows need to be pinned into place.
Then there is the matter of the required equipment to do 150 for any lenght of distance comsidering that is traveling over 2 miles a minute.
Police 440 engine spec's were not published even in the 70's that we could find even at the dealer level. Beyond disassembly of a car which would have been hard to explain and recording everything.
Maybe that they are now out of production and no longer used for police purposes that info is available. Just dont know.
 
"The older one gets, the faster he ran as a boy." That old quote applies to more than how good an athlete you remember being 40 years ago.
 
I once built a 72 Rally Chally for top end purposes only. It was slammed as low as we could get it. Heavily modified 340. Got it up to a buck 50 with a quarter of the pedal left and realized we had really limited steering. If it would have small wings on the side we would have been cleared for take off. Scared the **** out us.
The factory cars weren't designed to go that fast IMHO. The Superbird is another story though.
 
Maybe adding the Daytona Wing would already help enough?
Does not look to bad on a normal Charger. :)

It will add the necessary down force on the rear, but will do nothing for the lift on the front.
 
It will add the necessary down force on the rear, but will do nothing for the lift on the front.

Is buying a Daytona Kit with Nose and Wing the only solution?
Cant you help with Suspension Upgrades and/or modern Tires?

Cant believe the 69 Charger has worse Aerodynamics than a 69 Polara or 78 Fury?
 
I think it's possible that a chin spoiler (like the current Challengers have ) might provide a significant improvement in keeping air from under the vehicle which should improve high speed handling to a degree, however, you might not want to violate the nose cone.
 
615321.jpg


Also in 1978, the Michigan State Police launched its yearly performance-based police car tests, a true best-bang-for-the-buck evaluation that dramatically differed from those done jointly, since 1956, by the Los Angeles County Sherriff’s and Los Angeles Police Departments. Michigan’s result: the 440 Fury handily bested the competition. Supplied with a 2.71 rear gear, it went from 0-60 MPH in 9.2 seconds; top speed was 132.7 MPH.

615322.jpg


How did that compare against John Q. Public’s options?

615323-970x646.jpg


The test Fury out-accelerated a Corvette and could match a Ferrari’s pace at the top end; it was simply the fastest new car on the road in 1978. More so, the ’78 police Fury’s top speed would not be surpassed by another police-package model until the release of the Chevy Caprice 9C1 police package in 1994, with its LT1 engine. But, as we’ve already mentioned, officers could not celebrate the 440’s power advantage for long, as all variations of this engine were gone by ’79.

“I was hired in January 1971,” Barry begins reflecting on his police car experience, “and became a member of the State Police troop in June. We were not assigned cars, so as a rookie I never got a newer one; I usually had a ’69 Fury with a high-performance 383. In the ensuing years, the Delaware State Police sent bids to Plymouth for service vehicles, and while I was still in slightly older fleet cars, a friend of mine ended up with one of these ’78 440 Furys. He said that he could come off the access road onto I-95 south and was in three figures by the time he got to the end of the ramp. Until then, our fleet was comprised of C-bodies, so the B-body was about the hottest thing going. He loved that car. Unfortunately, I never had one. My first opportunity in a new police car came in ’79 when we had Chrysler Newports [editor’s note: These were R-body models, like the Dodge St. Regis] equipped with a 360. By ’81 we had 318-powered Plymouth Furys in the fleet, then Diplomats. So as a force we went from a ’78 with a 440 to a 318 in ’81. That was a disappointment. That was a fairly large automobile with a 318.”

After Barry retired, a friend reached out stating he had found and purchased a long-decommissioned 1973 Fury with a 440. “I always loved that car–they were the loudest in the fleet; their exhaust was fairly straight. At the time, they were built right in Newark, Delaware, and some of the Chrysler Corporation employees didn’t like being stopped by us on the interstate for various violations. So with all of these memories, I said that I would like to have a ’73 as well,” recalls Barry. It didn’t take long for him to get his chance.

“In late summer 2001 my friend called to tell me about a ’78 Fury with a 440 that he found for sale in Eureka Springs, Arkansas. It was a former Kansas State Patrol car. It had to have been in storage for a bit because it wasn’t placed in service until August 24, 1978–I have that documentation. At some point, the Fury was sent to Texas before it went to Arkansas. As a Kansas car, it was a marked unit in a silver-over-dark blue scheme with a light bar on the roof. By the time I got it, the light bar had been removed and the top had been painted blue.”

Over the course of about 18 months after its purchase, another of Barry’s friends resurrected the tired body and paint after tending to some quarter-panel work due to salt corrosion. Meanwhile, Barry obtained permission from the superintendent to replicate period Delaware markings in magnetic form. To complete the look, the cabin was fitted with period gear, including an equipment stack and functioning radar system. As Barry explained, “I am not permitted to make arrests any more, but I had it certified and installed to use as a speedometer because it gives a better readout than the factory gauge–its arm moves a bit, and the radar is spot on anyway.”

Which means Barry drives his last-of-the-440s Fury on a rather regular basis, including parades and regional vintage police car gatherings. So what’s it like to drive an A38 Pursuit?

BEHIND THE WHEEL: MATT LITWIN
“Getting settled on the bench seat, clearly a plush feel was present–even in heavy-duty trim, support and comfort were key during a long shift. The 140-MPH gauge seemed out of place, in terms of period instrumentation; however, the array of police equipment doesn’t let you forget you’re at the helm of a cruiser.

“Gearing was set for long hauls on the highway, so before you even get on it, you know the real power band kicks in at the top end. It made negotiating onto a fast-paced three-lane stretch of Delaware highway, from the median, interesting during our drive. Get it past 60 and it wants to keep running, with a subtle squat managed nicely by the tuned suspension. Steering response was spot on, but road feel was more seat-of-the-pants than through the wheel. Just as surprising was its even cornering and weight distribution–this from a sedan chassis that had been initially designed with boulevard duty for the masses, rather than those with badges.

“Keeping it all in proper context, it’s easy to understand why the 440 Fury of ’78 captured the attention of officers and heavy-footed gearheads alike.”

BEHIND THE WHEEL: TERRY SHEA
“The big Fury was not at all what I expected, but given a relatively steady diet of peak-era muscle cars and modern performance automobiles, perhaps my expectations should have been checked at the door.

“The Fury’s big blue bench seat should have also been a sign that we weren’t in for any tire-scorching antics. Fortunately, as the last of the 440 cop cars, it still made decent power–255 hp from the factory, though said to be higher here with an overbore and higher-compression pistons at rebuild. Likewise, the 355-lb.ft. torque rating also spoke volumes about the 440’s intentions when it comes to moving the near 4,000-pound sedan.

“With 2.71 gears in the rear end, the 440 didn’t exactly come alive off the line to get the car moving, but with that giant lump of torque under the hood, acceleration was guaranteed, even if not quite at the pace of, say, a ’69 Charger equipped with a 440 and 4.10 gears. The TorqueFlite, too, did an admirable job of kicking down, but you really had to get into the accelerator to get it to grab second gear.

“The Fury was definitely in its element cruising on the highway, the steering essentially effortless and unfortunately more than a bit vague, making it easy for the guy behind the wheel, which is an excellent quality in a car that might have seen its driver at that wheel for eight to 12 hours a day, sometimes more. There was no mistaking it, driving a seemingly larger-than-life police car, even one that has been retired for three decades, gives you a presence on the road in a way that even a bright red winged Daytona doesn’t.”

OWNER’S VIEW
Right from the start, I had intentions of restoring the Fury to Delaware State Police livery, so the bodywork that was needed was going to have to be done anyway. Although my wife and I were able to drive it from Arkansas to Delaware, I still had the engine and transmission rebuilt, the former to help burn the new high-test fuel more efficiently. It’s an interesting car in that when I drive it without the markings, nobody notices because it’s just an old blue late-Seventies sedan, but once those magnets are on, everyone turns their heads. Although I do several parades and such, driving the final year 440 on the open road is a lot of fun.–Barry Beck

1978 PLYMOUTH FURY POLICE PURSUIT
255 HORSEPOWER @ 4,400 RPM
355-LB.FT. TORQUE @ 3,200 RPM
0-60 MPH: 9.2 SECONDS*

SPECIFICATIONS

PRICE
Base price: $4,512 (civilian edition)
Price as profiled: Due to differences in state/county fleet purchase protocol systems, prices varied based on approved bids
Options on car profiled: A38 Police Pursuit Package; E86 440-cu.in. engine; cruise control; air conditioning; engine-block heater

ENGINE
Block type: Chrysler RB-series OHV V-8, cast-iron block and cylinder heads
Displacement: 440 cubic inches
Bore x stroke: 4.32 x 3.75 inches (currently 4.35 x 3.75)
Compression ratio: 8.2:1 (currently: 9.0:1)
Horsepower @ RPM: 255 @ 4,400 (currently 300 hp)
Torque @ RPM: 355-lb.ft. @ 3,200
Valvetrain: Hydraulic lifters
Main bearings: Five
Fuel system: Carter Thermoquad four-barrel carburetor, 800-850 CFM (Currently Edelbrock four-barrel), mechanical pump
Lubrication system: Pressure, gear-type pump
Electrical system: 12-volt
Exhaust system: Cast-iron manifolds, dual catalytic converters, dual pipes and mufflers

TRANSMISSION
Type: TorqueFlite 727 three-speed automatic
Ratios: 1st: 2.45:1
2nd: 1.45:1
3rd: 1.00:1
Reverse: 2.20:1

DIFFERENTIAL
Type: Chrysler 9-1/4 inch
Ratio: 3.23:1 (currently 2.71:1)

STEERING
Type: Recirculating ball, power assist
Ratio: 15.7:1; overall ratio 18.8:1
Turns, lock-to-lock: 3.50

BRAKES
Type: Hydraulic, power assist
Front: 11.75-inch rotor
Rear: 11 x 2.50-inch cast-iron drum

CHASSIS & BODY
Construction: Unit-body
Body style: Four-door sedan
Layout: Front engine, rear-wheel drive

SUSPENSION
Front: Independent, upper A arm; lower control arm, heavy-duty torsion bars and tubular hydraulic shock absorbers; heavy-duty anti-roll bar
Rear: Live axle; heavy-duty leaf springs and 9tubular hydraulic shock absorbers

WHEELS & TIRES
Wheels: Stamped steel
Front: 15 x 7 inches
Rear: 15 x 7 inches
Tires: Goodyear radial (currently Sumitomo radial)
Front: 78×15 blackwall (currently 225/70R15 blackwall)
Rear: 78×15 blackwall (currently 225/70R15 blackwall)

WEIGHTS & MEASURES
Wheelbase: 117 inches
Overall length: 218 inches
Overall width: 78 inches
Overall height: 54 inches
Front track: 62 inches
Rear track: 62 inches
Curb weight: 3,900 pounds

CAPACITIES
Crankcase: 6 quarts
Cooling system: 16.5 quarts
Fuel tank: 25 gallons
Transmission: 15.5 pints

CALCULATED DATA
Bhp per cu.in.: 0.58
Weight per bhp: 15.29 pounds
Weight per cu.in.: 8.86

PRODUCTION
At the time of publication, cumulative 1978 fleet vehicle sales figures were unavailable.

PERFORMANCE*
0-100 MPH: 24.8 seconds
Top speed: 133 MPH
*From the 1978 Michigan State Police Vehicle Evaluation Tests.
 
Look at pictures of '68 Chargers when they raced them to see what Chrysler and the racers did.
A '69 Charger 500 is a very stable car from reports of Buddy Baker track testing. At one point he said it was boring to drive at 180 plus.
 
Yes, the grille and the backlight. A '69 Charger will easily go those speeds and more. But, do you want to feel like you are riding on the edge of disaster while doing it?
Buddy Baker said about a '68 NASCAR racer that at a 100 it started to feel funny, at 180 he would turn the wheels to go into a turn and nothing happened.
Been there and done that. One time was enough.
 
Well i hope the stock cooling from a 69' Charger is sufficient for driving 130-150mph for longer periods of time.
Or at least that adding HD Radiator, Oil Cooler etc. will do the Trick.

Aero wise I dont like the Charger 500 looks so thats not an option.
If nothing else helps and it really needs improvement i guess i have to install a Daytona Kit.
Well maybe just the Daytona rear Spoiler and a chin spoiler in the front as mentioned.

Cant you Improve the stability with modern tires and suspension upgrades instead of altering the body?
 
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