Leaf springs for handling

[Cranky]

The simple answer to most of your questions is.....NO. There is no one answer to what makes a car handle better for you than another driver. A set of $300 dollar springs might work great for one but not another. It comes down to 'works for you' vs what works for another. It's all about testing what works for you. Me....I like 'softer' springs and big bars and good shocks as a starting point.

 

[70chall440]

@Cranky - I agree and have surmised pretty much the same thing, however (and as is my nature) I want to understand (if I can) what does what. I have always been "that guy" who says "why" and this is just my latest interest. In all probability I will go with what I know to work but to be honest I have never really paid much attention to leaf springs, so now I am.

I know that there isn't any one answer or one formula that will work across the board for all cars, drivers, environments but the more I/we know the better decisions we can make. This all began when my buddy purchased a set of Hotchkis springs which I thought was a good idea until I saw they went from $500 to $700. This got me to wondering why they figured that they should/could do that. Now i know the economics side (supply, materials, shipping, etc.) but I got to wondering "if" as they say the "juice is worth the squeeze" and at present I am thinking not so much.

Unfortunately much of what you can research about Mopar handling is centered around drag racing and while that certainly has its own nuances, I am more concerned with general handling and even performance handling. This isn't rocket science but it also isn't intuitive as there is no lack of people and companies out there saying one thing or another in an effort to get the consumer to spend his/her money.

 

[blue69runner]

The Six leaf spring's would make it handle better is what I am finding out. Still want to put a Sway bar on the rear. Keep us informed as to what you decide.

 

[70chall440]

I agree about the 6 leaves, so the key is what configuration and how to keep the ride height low (not super low but level and relatively low).

 

[66Satellite47]

Not sure what might be something that makes the price difference. Could be the material/metalurgy used to make the leafs? Many spring makers offer different ride heights (arch). Back in the day when I was making springs for my drag car. I used a top quality local spring shop to vary the arch.

 

[ckessel]

Hotchkis may not actually make the springs. Good chance they came up with the specs after much r&d, then subbed out the manufacturing of them to another company. This may be why they are more. They may be buying them then re-selling with their r&d built into the price. Same with their Fox shocks. I took some pics of out of print books that may help you answer a lot of questions. You would need to do some scrounging to find them. Amazon and some other maybe. The one with the red cover[ thats my car on it, but I got it 20 some years after the fact] and the old DC Oval track book[ brownish color] are jammed full of info that is still relevant even now. Lots of math and graphs for setup. The MP book with the truck on it isn't bad but they left out a tremendous amount of info that matters. I also took a picture of what was offered back in the Kit Car era for springs. The kit car program was based off of E bodies originally but B's can use the same pieces. Since Landrum is in the circle track biz, they may be a good source for springs unless you get lucky like I did in the late 80's and find someone who has Kit Car pieces laying around from back in the day. Thats how I found what I needed for my Challenger back then.

View attachment 1189373

 

[70chall440]

I really appreciate you posting this information, I ordered the Oval track book from Mancini (the one with the truck on it) and the "How to" book is now called "Mopar Suspensions" which I got from eBay.

From the looks of it your car handled pretty well.

As to Hotchkis's prices, I have no idea why they felt they needed a $200 price increase but I guess they felt they could get it. I don't know whether their metallurgy is any better that anyone else's but I would impressed if it were, I think they are about the same but their configuration is definitely different.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

So as I am apt to do I began researching leaf springs in depth. I have a set of Hotchkis springs here for a build I will be doing on a friends car and I have a set of stock springs (71 Charger) as well as SS springs under a 70 Satellite that is in my shop and factory springs under my 70 Challenger RT (440).

Hotchkis said at one time that their springs are "geometry corrected" (notice they don't say that now EDIT: actually do if you find the right web page). There are definitely differences in their spring pack but I cannot see any "magic" that would make their springs necessarily any better than anything else other than that they have multiple short leaves in the front of the pack somewhat similar to SS springs.

Now I stumbled upon Global West and they are promoting reverse eyelets and spherical bushings. The reverse eyelet seems to make some sense but the spherical bushings have me scratching my head a bit. I understand the concept but I guess I would have to see some modeling to fully get my head around it.

I am really trying to determine what makes for a good/great handling system as it relates specifically to the springs. From what I am seeing/reading it would seem that so long as the springs are in working condition, are somewhat stiff in the front pack to resist axle wrap AND are supported by a good sway bar and good shocks you are as good as you are going to get.

I realize that "handling" is a broad based term and encompasses an entire system which includes body stiffness, reduction of unnecessary movement throughout the system, quality components, stiff sway bars and minimization of axle wrap (and of course good tires which have a good contact patch). All this leads me to believe that while some springs are better than others from a stiffness standpoint, they unto themselves are not the "magic bullet" as some would like you to believe.

To this end and looking at the Hotchkis springs, I believe they can be easily replicated using a couple of sets of older springs (assuming you have some which I do). However if you don't have them, then you could purchase pretty much any good spring set and be at the same place. In other words there is no reason to spend $700 on a set of "performance" springs when you can get the same effect for $300 or perhaps less.

Sorry for the rant and long post but I know there are a lot of people out there who are wondering the same thing. I ordered the book "how to make your muscle car handle" so I will see what they say but in thinking through this, I think I am on track (no pun intended).

I'm running my original SS springs. The spring rate IIRC was somewhat similar. I've read everything from the Hotchkis leafs being flat (which is why I didn't purchase them originally), to the most recent case, where Roadkill Garage installed a set on their 'General Mayhem' and they actually lifted the rear of the car a few inches. As others have mentioned, there are some production variances and they could likely be from the suppliers of the springs if Hotchkis doesn't build them in-house.

 

[ckessel]

Bonehead70GeTeX, do you have a different opinion to warrant your Red X that you would like to share and enlighten me and others?

 

[70chall440]

Bonehead70GeTeX, do you have a different opinion to warrant your Red X that you would like to share and enlighten me and others?

That was like a year and a half ago, dude probably doesn't remember... maybe just a bad day..

 

[Cranky]

That was like a year and a half ago, dude probably doesn't remember... maybe just a bad day..

Lots of times somebody intends to hit the agree button but fat fingers hit the x instead and then they move on without paying attention to what they did.

 

[70chall440]

I can't say that I have never done that but usually when I hit the X its because I disagree with the statement.

 

[Cranky]

I can't say that I have never done that but usually when I hit the X its because I disagree with the statement.

And that's what it's supposed to be all about...

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

Yeah I agree, I will be using a Borgeson box with fast ratio pitman/idler arm. I do my own alignments so thats not an issue. Not sure what wheels and tires I will be using until I get the mock up done specifically with the brakes.

Borgeson box AND fast ratio arms?? Have you driven that setup before? The Borgeson is already faster ratio. Adding fast ratio arms on top of that might make for some twitchy steering in the turns. I used to run fast ratio arms with my Firm Feel stage 2 box. It handled pretty well, but the fast ratio arms increase the steering effort considerably (about 5x as much). Not quite as much as manual steering, but almost. After a few road race events and then really getting to know the feel of my car on the street, it often felt twitchy on a full circle off ramp, so I went back to stock idler and pitman. Not as precise now, but with lots of caster and a bit of camber along with the ability to spin the wheel quicker, it's much more pleasant. Next up for me is a Borgeson box swap with stock arms.

I also run the Hotchkis rear leafs along with their hollow front sway bar and a Firm Feel frame hung rear bar.
I like the Hotchkis leafs. They say they are 1-inch lower than stock, they're already front clamped, and as you said they have a stack of shorter leafs. I'm no expert, but when selecting your leafs, also pay attention to the advertised spring rate. I believe the Hotchkis are 160-lb/in which is higher than stock. It's fine for the street and track, but you'll need to balance your front torsion bar spring rate. I'm running 1.00" T-bars from Firm Feel.

By the way, a bit of searching and I found the Hotchkis leafs on sale for $630.
Hotchkis Mopar B-Body 1 inch drop Geometry Corrected Sport Leaf Springs

Summit's also got the Hotchkis for $687. Don't order direct from Hotchkis, it will cost more. They don't want to undercut their distributors.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

I have not autocrossed or track day my car. However I did pay attention somewhat to building my leaf springs for my Charger. I had replaced the leaf springs in my Challenger with Mopar Performance HD rear springs (mostly a stockish resto). Took apart the springs and added to the stock springs from my Charger (383-2bbl), I think I overdid the right rear half leaves (it a stick car). It handles decent (needs T bars now) and probably a rear bar.
If you have a couple of sets I would just build my own, center pins are cheap. My 2 cents, hope it helps.

 

[ckessel]

Last night was the first time the Red X showed up, never before. Just a fat finger most likely unless it's an individual who thrives on stuff like that. If it is a difference in opinion or knowledge, I and others could benefit from an info exchange. Even as long as I've been at this I don't know everything and want to keep getting my knowledge tank filled. There is always someone out there who has the solution to an issue that I can't quite fix.
What I would like the Red Xers to do is enlighten the poster with the reason behind the gift. Don't hide.

 

[Cranky]

Borgeson box AND fast ratio arms?? Have you driven that setup before? The Borgeson is already faster ratio. Adding fast ratio arms on top of that might make for some twitchy steering in the turns. I used to run fast ratio arms with my Firm Feel stage 2 box. It handled pretty well, but the fast ratio arms increase the steering effort considerably (about 5x as much). Not quite as much as manual steering, but almost. After a few road race events and then really getting to know the feel of my car on the street, it often felt twitchy on a full circle off ramp, so I went back to stock idler and pitman. Not as precise now, but with lots of caster and a bit of camber along with the ability to spin the wheel quicker, it's much more pleasant. Next up for me is a Borgeson box swap with stock arms.

I also run the Hotchkis rear leafs along with their hollow front sway bar and a Firm Feel frame hung rear bar.
I like the Hotchkis leafs. They say they are 1-inch lower than stock, they're already front clamped, and as you said they have a stack of shorter leafs. I'm no expert, but when selecting your leafs, also pay attention to the advertised spring rate. I believe the Hotchkis are 160-lb/in which is higher than stock. It's fine for the street and track, but you'll need to balance your front torsion bar spring rate. I'm running 1.00" T-bars from Firm Feel.

By the way, a bit of searching and I found the Hotchkis leafs on sale for $630.
Hotchkis Mopar B-Body 1 inch drop Geometry Corrected Sport Leaf Springs

Summit's also got the Hotchkis for $687. Don't order direct from Hotchkis, it will cost more. They don't want to undercut their distributors.

Have you ever driven an AAR Cuda or TA Challenger...or any 71 340 powered E body as they got the same steering as the AAR's and TA's. I liked it on my 71 Cuda. It was 2 1/2 turns lock to lock. The only down side to mine was someone replaced the idler with a stock unit so it scrubbed on tight turns but didn't seem to bother anything if you weren't making a tight turn. Was just wondering how these might have compared to yours.

 

[70chall440]

Borgeson box AND fast ratio arms?? Have you driven that setup before? The Borgeson is already faster ratio. Adding fast ratio arms on top of that might make for some twitchy steering in the turns. I used to run fast ratio arms with my Firm Feel stage 2 box. It handled pretty well, but the fast ratio arms increase the steering effort considerably (about 5x as much). Not quite as much as manual steering, but almost. After a few road race events and then really getting to know the feel of my car on the street, it often felt twitchy on a full circle off ramp, so I went back to stock idler and pitman. Not as precise now, but with lots of caster and a bit of camber along with the ability to spin the wheel quicker, it's much more pleasant. Next up for me is a Borgeson box swap with stock arms.

I also run the Hotchkis rear leafs along with their hollow front sway bar and a Firm Feel frame hung rear bar.
I like the Hotchkis leafs. They say they are 1-inch lower than stock, they're already front clamped, and as you said they have a stack of shorter leafs. I'm no expert, but when selecting your leafs, also pay attention to the advertised spring rate. I believe the Hotchkis are 160-lb/in which is higher than stock. It's fine for the street and track, but you'll need to balance your front torsion bar spring rate. I'm running 1.00" T-bars from Firm Feel.

By the way, a bit of searching and I found the Hotchkis leafs on sale for $630.
Hotchkis Mopar B-Body 1 inch drop Geometry Corrected Sport Leaf Springs

Summit's also got the Hotchkis for $687. Don't order direct from Hotchkis, it will cost more. They don't want to undercut their distributors.

I had the same question which I posed to FF when I was buying all of my front end stuff; the FR arms and the Borgeson box but they said they didn't know how that would work out. I am prepared to go to stock arms if it is crazy twitchy. So here is my build list;

1.12 T bars
Rebuilt rear springs using the stock springs and another set
Rear sliders with solid bushings
Adjustable front hangers with poly bushings
Hellwig tubular front and rear sway bars
11/16 tie rod ends
Adjustable and greaseable struts
Reinforced LCAs
QA1 Tubular UCAs
QA1 single adjustable shocks on all 4 corners
Assassin traction bars (don't start hating on me...)
Borgeson PS box
FF fast ratio pitman and idler arms
Wilwood 4 WDBs
Hydroboost brake booster
Welded/reinforced K frame
Full sub frame connectors
Inner fender braces
Lower radiator brace (homemade and super rigid)
Torque boxes

We will see how it all works out

 

[70chall440]

Oh I forgot to mention that I have FF stage 3 boxes with FR arms in my 70 Challenger and my 73 Cuda, those at first felt twitchy but once I got used to them they are awesome. They do not steer as well as my 01 GTS ACR Viper but they are not far off.

 

[70chall440]

Last night was the first time the Red X showed up, never before. Just a fat finger most likely unless it's an individual who thrives on stuff like that. If it is a difference in opinion or knowledge, I and others could benefit from an info exchange. Even as long as I've been at this I don't know everything and want to keep getting my knowledge tank filled. There is always someone out there who has the solution to an issue that I can't quite fix.
What I would like the Red Xers to do is enlighten the poster with the reason behind the gift. Don't hide.

I can say that I have clicked the red X and not left a comment as in some instances it just pours gas onto the fire. Sure I could just ignore it but what fun is that... Typically however if I disagree I will explain my point but it does not always work out with some people.