Lifter bore clearance?

[Challenger340]

Depends upon the location of the "wear" in a BB Mopar Lifter Bore is ?

Typically the worst, or most worn part of the BB Mopar Lifter Bore is concentrated in the very "short"..... and load bearing area directly below the Oil Gallery ?
The more the Bore is worn in that area.... the faster it will continue to wear, and time to bush the bores.
Go have a look visually with a flashlight.
Look at the "half moon" shaped wear pattern from the bottom of the Lifter Bore UP to just below the Oil Gallery. If the wear in that area exceeds .001" OOR from the rest of the Bore.....
or,
the top of the half moon wear pattern is more than 2/3 of the distance to the bottom of the Oil gallery... time to bush.

If the Lifter Bore is decently straight & round within .0005"... including below the Oil Gallery, then .0025" to .003" actual Lifter clearance will run.

 

[wyrmrider]

cooling the valve springs is a major reason for an oil flood up top
comparably rockers are easy
especially stock or bronze bushed and rollers do not need much oil at all
it's the center two exhaust springs
and feeding the main at the same time

 

[Cranky]

Was going to ask if you measured the bores top and bottom and at 12/6 and 9/3 o'clock positions but Challenger340 covered it. Measure the lifter bores like you would measure a cylinder.

 

[Hemirunner]

cooling the valve springs is a major reason for an oil flood up top
comparably rockers are easy
especially stock or bronze bushed and rollers do not need much oil at all
it's the center two exhaust springs
and feeding the main at the same time

The factory timed oiling is plenty to cool valve springs. More up top just means less where you really need it. Watch how much oil is delivered at 6000 rpm under clear valve covers. You don’t need it all, let alone more.

 

[wyrmrider]

my point was aimed at those that restrict it

 

[bherman]

As long as the lifters rotate it shouldn't be an issue. As far as oil pressure my 572 has .0025 lifter bore clearance. with 45-60 @ idle depending on temp.
Doug

Thanks for the information Doug I appreciate it, Brian.

cam is tapered and lifters have a crown face more than enough to cover the angle that .003 cocked each way top and bottom would generate on a .904 lifter
rollers however do like to roll straight
remember Isky's torridal crowned rollers?
before that everyone ran cylindrical rollers with just a little chamfer on the edges

.910 that's a bunch .006 clearance
remember the cam lobe will push the lifter over the same way
looking for a good block- lotsa luck looking for perfection- just do the lifter bores find a shop with the tooling
more accurate than a steeped reamer- I've had to fix some horrible DIY lifter bore jobs- mostly in BBC- Figures
too bad the Olds lifters are not readily available- I could see reaming to .921
BTW used to use a vertical mill with the block tied down and lined up- much better than trying to locate a reamer in an oval hole

wyrmrider, I'm not looking for perfection just trying to avoid making mistakes that I made the first time around. Thanks, Brian.

Depends upon the location of the "wear" in a BB Mopar Lifter Bore is ?

Typically the worst, or most worn part of the BB Mopar Lifter Bore is concentrated in the very "short"..... and load bearing area directly below the Oil Gallery ?
The more the Bore is worn in that area.... the faster it will continue to wear, and time to bush the bores.
Go have a look visually with a flashlight.
Look at the "half moon" shaped wear pattern from the bottom of the Lifter Bore UP to just below the Oil Gallery. If the wear in that area exceeds .001" OOR from the rest of the Bore.....
or,
the top of the half moon wear pattern is more than 2/3 of the distance to the bottom of the Oil gallery... time to bush.

If the Lifter Bore is decently straight & round within .0005"... including below the Oil Gallery, then .0025" to .003" actual Lifter clearance will run.

Challenger340, thank you for your very clear and informative post. Armed with your info I will inspect them more carefully.

Was going to ask if you measured the bores top and bottom and at 12/6 and 9/3 o'clock positions but Challenger340 covered it. Measure the lifter bores like you would measure a cylinder.

Cranky, I did measure them 12/6 and 9/3 but I confess I didn't measure them below the oil galley. Thanks for your input, Brian.

 

[wyrmrider]

Very good tips challanger, Cranky
I have a dial bore gauge which makes it too easy
Brian- if you are still under .003 u can put off doing the lifter bores but sooner or later...
we we are dealing with 50 year old iron

 

[not so famous bob]

The factory timed oiling is plenty to cool valve springs. More up top just means less where you really need it. Watch how much oil is delivered at 6000 rpm under clear valve covers. You don’t need it all, let alone more.

At 90/100 degrees, at a stop light, in an over 700 horse A body barracuda w/ limited rad/fan room, I need all I can get. Where does one get clear valve covers ? I made a clear valley pan, ditto on the oil flying around down there.
Ever see burned shafts and bushed rocker arms ? agree on the #4 main oiling thing, WISH I HAD MORE TO IT .

 

[Challenger340]

Very good tips challanger, Cranky
I have a dial bore gauge which makes it too easy
Brian- if you are still under .003 u can put off doing the lifter bores but sooner or later...
we we are dealing with 50 year old iron

And therein is the quandry at this point.... IMO ?
because although they will technically run at the .0025" to .003" clearance, if you do any honing ? further wear can from there be greatly accelerated, due to the lifter "slop" in the Bore concentrating loads in an ever diminishing area ? Because as you hone the lifter bore back straight & round, you are actually "reducing" the worn in area in the Bore ?
Just say'in...
sometimes best to just leave them alone at that point ?

 

[Cranky]

Very good tips challanger, Cranky
I have a dial bore gauge which makes it too easy
Brian- if you are still under .003 u can put off doing the lifter bores but sooner or later...
we we are dealing with 50 year old iron

Thanks...and this thread got me to thinking that I haven't seen my dial bore gauge in some time now but after searching for a bit, it was found safe and sound. There are several tools that's been loaned out that never found their way home for some dumb reason but people quit borrowing when I started keeping a list of where the stuff was going. Wonder why that happened lol

At 90/100 degrees, at a stop light, in an over 700 horse A body barracuda w/ limited rad/fan room, I need all I can get. Where does one get clear valve covers ? I made a clear valley pan, ditto on the oil flying around down there.
Ever see burned shafts and bushed rocker arms ? agree on the #4 main oiling thing, WISH I HAD MORE TO IT .

Many do not realize just how much heat a valve spring generates when they are used with a high lift cam. Throw in idling at a light or in heavy traffic like trying to get into a car show etc, and the heat can go pretty high on a spring. I don't mind flooding my springs either so long as the bottom end has all it needs too.

 

[Hemirunner]

At 90/100 degrees, at a stop light, in an over 700 horse A body barracuda w/ limited rad/fan room, I need all I can get. Where does one get clear valve covers ? I made a clear valley pan, ditto on the oil flying around down there.
Ever see burned shafts and bushed rocker arms ? agree on the #4 main oiling thing, WISH I HAD MORE TO IT .

We hacked up an old set of aluminum valve covers and made them. They were for the dyno rather than actual running on the street. Burned shafts seems like a starvation problem. I’ve seen that happen but it’s usually a case where the bolt hole in the shaft isn’t large enough to let sufficient oil in. Did you pinpoint what caused yours?

 

[Challenger340]

I dunno what kind of V/Springs and Pressures are being discussed here ?
Flat Tappet stuff ?
or,
Race Roller type pressures/rates ?

No argument from me regarding the flow of clean/cool Oil over the V/Springs for cooling, as the ONLY way they cool and critical for longevity ?

That said.....
IMO, and no wars wanted here so again only IMO...
but running RACE style Rollers & V/Springs on the Street(550# Rates and higher), is IMO, an impractical exercise in attention to maintenance, thermal stabilization, and great continuity for limited mileages devoid of real and extended Street useage.

We have 925+hp pump gas Hemi's out there running around with Race Roller profiles on the Street doing the outlaw thing.... but we stay sub .650" Lift because some we don't see for 4-5 years at a time between our freshening's, and obviously mileages are VERY limited in between, and their owner's are schooled in, and maintain a strict V/Spring maintenance regime ? and I won't even begin to discuss the Oiling mods we undertook for V/Spring Oiling even at the sub .650" Lift ?

 

[Hemirunner]

I dunno what kind of V/Springs and Pressures are being discussed here ?
Flat Tappet stuff ?
or,
Race Roller type pressures/rates ?

No argument from me regarding the flow of clean/cool Oil over the V/Springs for cooling, as the ONLY way they cool and critical for longevity ?

That said.....
IMO, and no wars wanted here so again only IMO...
but running RACE style Rollers & V/Springs on the Street(550# Rates and higher), is IMO, an impractical exercise in attention to maintenance, thermal stabilization, and great continuity for limited mileages devoid of real and extended Street useage.

We have 925+hp pump gas Hemi's out there running around with Race Roller profiles on the Street doing the outlaw thing.... but we stay sub .650" Lift because some we don't see for 4-5 years at a time between our freshening's, and obviously mileages are VERY limited in between, and their owner's are schooled in, and maintain a strict V/Spring maintenance regime ? and I won't even begin to discuss the Oiling mods we undertook for V/Spring Oiling even at the sub .650" Lift ?

I’m talking oiling for most Street/strip type applications, not purpose built, street legal race cars.

 

[Challenger340]

If we are assuming a Gen 2 Hemi ?
We've had no problems for most Street/Strip Roller applications merely enlarging the #4 Cam Journal feed groove on the Cam(rifle drill enlarge the #4 Main feed in the Block obviously first), then drilling the Exhaust Shaft retainer Bolts and silver solder on copper spray tubes crushed on a #11 Drill(I think, but I better go look at the Pkg).
It "Drips" a nice flow up/over on to the Intake Pushrod Cup/Seat that splashes nicely around including the V/Springs @ rpm, and we've never experienced a problem with the rob from Exhaust Shaft Flow(gravity being what it is)
The above is the basic.... you can taylor from there as you see fit.

 

[bherman]

I dunno what kind of V/Springs and Pressures are being discussed here ?
Flat Tappet stuff ?
or,
Race Roller type pressures/rates ?

No argument from me regarding the flow of clean/cool Oil over the V/Springs for cooling, as the ONLY way they cool and critical for longevity ?

That said.....
IMO, and no wars wanted here so again only IMO...
but running RACE style Rollers & V/Springs on the Street(550# Rates and higher), is IMO, an impractical exercise in attention to maintenance, thermal stabilization, and great continuity for limited mileages devoid of real and extended Street useage.

We have 925+hp pump gas Hemi's out there running around with Race Roller profiles on the Street doing the outlaw thing.... but we stay sub .650" Lift because some we don't see for 4-5 years at a time between our freshening's, and obviously mileages are VERY limited in between, and their owner's are schooled in, and maintain a strict V/Spring maintenance regime ? and I won't even begin to discuss the Oiling mods we undertook for V/Spring Oiling even at the sub .650" Lift ?

Challenger340, I'm not sure if we are talking about my project or not, if not I'm still getting a lot of good info. The engine I'm working on is a solid flat tappet cam with .550 valve lift and the springs are 140# on the seat/ 385# over the nose. Comp says that those rates would be good to 6500 rpm.

If we are assuming a Gen 2 Hemi ?
We've had no problems for most Street/Strip Roller applications merely enlarging the #4 Cam Journal feed groove on the Cam(rifle drill enlarge the #4 Main feed in the Block obviously first), then drilling the Exhaust Shaft retainer Bolts and silver solder on copper spray tubes crushed on a #11 Drill(I think, but I better go look at the Pkg).
It "Drips" a nice flow up/over on to the Intake Pushrod Cup/Seat that splashes nicely around including the V/Springs @ rpm, and we've never experienced a problem with the rob from Exhaust Shaft Flow(gravity being what it is)
The above is the basic.... you can taylor from there as you see fit.

Challenger340, I wasn't oiling the heads through the block. I have Indy heads and I was remote oiling from the back of the block (full time). After break-in I restricted the oil to the rocker shafts with a .040 orifice trying to find my low hot oil pressure. After restricting I still had what appeared to be plenty of oil up top but still had low hot oil pressure, that's what led me to check the lifter bores. If I'm not pulling oil for the rocker shafts from the #4 cam journal would there be any reason to enlarge the feed groove in the cam or the #4 main feed in the block? Any and all opinions appreciated. Thanks Brian

 

[Challenger340]

140# seat and 385# over the nose ? so very close to.... or "at".... where we start opting for Tool Steel Lifters, which, if you talk nice to Trend maybe you can get them to oversize a set ?
Dave Popp down at Johnson used to do it for us occasionally on std sintered iron Solid Flat Tappets ?
Shouldn't be any different or a big deal for Trend to O/S a set of Tool Steels for the 385# over the nose ?
Just saying here....
why not just get a set of Tool Steels or Sintered Iron(whichever way you decide to go), made .001" or .002" oversize, and just re-Hone the Lifter Bores @ .001" clrc ?

If you ran the .040" INDY restrictors and still had plenty of Oil up top, but alas a low Oil Pressure "Hot" condition, what kind of bottom end bearing clearances were you running ?
Just us here, but we've never had to run a grooved #4 Cam Journal with the Wedges, and given your INDY setup it's obviously redundant anyway.

So, I am starting to pickup what your putting down here ?
This was a low Oil Pressure condition initially, that led to the Lifter clearance condition as suspect ? is this right ?

 

[bherman]

140# seat and 385# over the nose ? so very close to.... or "at".... where we start opting for Tool Steel Lifters, which, if you talk nice to Trend maybe you can get them to oversize a set ?
Dave Popp down at Johnson used to do it for us occasionally on std sintered iron Solid Flat Tappets ?
Shouldn't be any different or a big deal for Trend to O/S a set of Tool Steels for the 385# over the nose ?
Just saying here....
why not just get a set of Tool Steels or Sintered Iron(whichever way you decide to go), made .001" or .002" oversize, and just re-Hone the Lifter Bores @ .001" clrc ?

If you ran the .040" INDY restrictors and still had plenty of Oil up top, but alas a low Oil Pressure "Hot" condition, what kind of bottom end bearing clearances were you running ?
Just us here, but we've never had to run a grooved #4 Cam Journal with the Wedges, and given your INDY setup it's obviously redundant anyway.

So, I am starting to pickup what your putting down here ?
This was a low Oil Pressure condition initially, that led to the Lifter clearance condition as suspect ? is this right ?

Challenger340, thank you for your reply. I believe you have the situation assessed perfectly. I purchased an assembled short block from Indy and I don't know what the bearing clearances are yet. After I measured the lifter bores and discovered that I had .0055 to .006 clearance in the lifter bores I pulled the engine. I was initially thinking that I would check the bottom and bush the lifter bores. The heat cycles from break-in and the small amount of time I ran the car loosened the paint where Indy brazed the motor mount ear on the block (and covered it up quite nicely) so I decided a replacement block was in order. The plan at this time is to machine a replacement block, re-bearing, re-ring and put the rotating assembly in it.

I will check on the possibility of obtaining over size lifters. I think that would be a effective/simple solution. If I'm picking up what your putting down here, you believe that the spring pressures would dictate tool steel lifters. Is this right? LOL.
I have very little experience with this and thought those spring pressures were mild. Thanks again, Brian.

 

[Challenger340]

Challenger340, thank you for your reply. I believe you have the situation assessed perfectly. I purchased an assembled short block from Indy and I don't know what the bearing clearances are yet. After I measured the lifter bores and discovered that I had .0055 to .006 clearance in the lifter bores I pulled the engine. I was initially thinking that I would check the bottom and bush the lifter bores. The heat cycles from break-in and the small amount of time I ran the car loosened the paint where Indy brazed the motor mount ear on the block (and covered it up quite nicely) so I decided a replacement block was in order. The plan at this time is to machine a replacement block, re-bearing, re-ring and put the rotating assembly in it.

I will check on the possibility of obtaining over size lifters. I think that would be a effective/simple solution. If I'm picking up what your putting down here, you believe that the spring pressures would dictate tool steel lifters. Is this right? LOL.
I have very little experience with this and thought those spring pressures were mild. Thanks again, Brian.

As I said, we start thinking very seriously about going with the Tool Steel Lifters just below 400#, and certainly anything above that on Flat Tappets.
Opinions will vary, that's just our preference, and NOT taken lightly given the added expense of Tool Steel Lifters.
Some phonecalls are in order, see what others think.... but no-one will warranty a lobe going away, so we just default to Tool Steels on faster Flat Tappet profile stuff around 400#
which,
with 145# Seat rising to 385# @ .550" Lift, kinda sounds like 430# Rate V/Springs or higher ? which would also tend to indicate maybe a fast ramp Flat Tappet Cam profile, if not maybe even dedicated .904" Lobes maybe ?
Have you measured your actual V/Spring installed heights ? V/Spring "rate" ? and actual over the nose pressure ?
What Cam profile is this and by whom ?
Does it require that amount of seat/nose pressure ?
just saying....
if not.... then maybe backing down around 125# seat(if the Cam don't need it), may also provide some over the nose pressure comfort zone on std Iron Lifters in O/S ? (Far cheaper).

Curious to hear what kind of Bearing Clearances are present in the old Block.
If you can ?.... check the 1-4 Cam Bearing clearances as well(5 too small)

 

[not so famous bob]

As I said, we start thinking very seriously about going with the Tool Steel Lifters just below 400#, and certainly anything above that on Flat Tappets.
Opinions will vary, that's just our preference, and NOT taken lightly given the added expense of Tool Steel Lifters.
Some phonecalls are in order, see what others think.... but no-one will warranty a lobe going away, so we just default to Tool Steels on faster Flat Tappet profile stuff around 400#
which,
with 145# Seat rising to 385# @ .550" Lift, kinda sounds like 430# Rate V/Springs or higher ? which would also tend to indicate maybe a fast ramp Flat Tappet Cam profile, if not maybe even dedicated .904" Lobes maybe ?
Have you measured your actual V/Spring installed heights ? V/Spring "rate" ? and actual over the nose pressure ?
What Cam profile is this and by whom ?
Does it require that amount of seat/nose pressure ?
just saying....
if not.... then maybe backing down around 125# seat(if the Cam don't need it), may also provide some over the nose pressure comfort zone on std Iron Lifters in O/S ? (Far cheaper).

Curious to hear what kind of Bearing Clearances are present in the old Block.
If you can ?.... check the 1-4 Cam Bearing clearances as well(5 too small)

Not trying to but in , but my bearing clearances are on or about .0025. I have even been thinking of trying a diff hi volume oil pump, but have tried the adjustable regulator set up, and had too high cold pressure to get the hot idle oil pressure that suited me. Running 20w50 oil helps a bunch. Getting ready to switch to 20w50 syn., w/ new filter. Have to run the shorty filter, so I change it often! Not planning on an engine pull unless something breaks. GOD forbid !

 

[bherman]

As I said, we start thinking very seriously about going with the Tool Steel Lifters just below 400#, and certainly anything above that on Flat Tappets.
Opinions will vary, that's just our preference, and NOT taken lightly given the added expense of Tool Steel Lifters.
Some phonecalls are in order, see what others think.... but no-one will warranty a lobe going away, so we just default to Tool Steels on faster Flat Tappet profile stuff around 400#
which,
with 145# Seat rising to 385# @ .550" Lift, kinda sounds like 430# Rate V/Springs or higher ? which would also tend to indicate maybe a fast ramp Flat Tappet Cam profile, if not maybe even dedicated .904" Lobes maybe ?
Have you measured your actual V/Spring installed heights ? V/Spring "rate" ? and actual over the nose pressure ?
What Cam profile is this and by whom ?
Does it require that amount of seat/nose pressure ?
just saying....
if not.... then maybe backing down around 125# seat(if the Cam don't need it), may also provide some over the nose pressure comfort zone on std Iron Lifters in O/S ? (Far cheaper).

Curious to hear what kind of Bearing Clearances are present in the old Block.
If you can ?.... check the 1-4 Cam Bearing clearances as well(5 too small)

Challenger340, I did make some phone calls, Johnson said they were really out of the solid flat tappet business but may have some left over blanks they could grind for me, They are checking for me. Johnson also indicated that if they had blanks the maximum size they could produce would be .905-.9055. Trend will make whatever you want just dependent on lead time. They are also checking their blanks to see if they have anything that will go .906. If they do, it will significantly reduce the four week lead time.
The cam that I was hoping to run Is a Comp Cams part# 23-232-4 Extreme Energy series, it's an off the shelf part, I have no idea how aggressive the lobe profile is. I believe Comp recommended 375# @ .560 lift, which is the total lift I arrived at with a .361 lobe lift X 1.6 rocker minus the .018 lash = .5596- if I did the math correctly. We set the installed height (I believe that was 1.850) to get 375# at max lift and came up with 138# on the seat and 377# @ .560 lift. We had plenty of room to coil bind.
I'm curious about the clearances in the engine as well but I just looked at the main and rod bearings to decide the rotating assembly looked useable and left the components in the block for safe-keeping. Now that I have found a block that sonic checked and magnafluxed ok, I think I'm ready to start. I included the cam info, thanks, Brian