Looking at "cam degreeing" on youtube... What a pain in the ***...

[Kern Dog]

Its a bit different with the engine in the car and the heads are on the engine.

 

[Kern Dog]

You know how people say... "You had to BE there" ??
How true, how true. Once I jumped in and took a closer look, stuff just started making sense. I pulled the spark plugs. The engine turned over MUCH easier and I was able to feel the piston stop easily. I was able to degree the cam and came up with a number of 110. The cam shows a 108 LSA and an installed centerline of 106 for a 2 degree advance. Being at 110 means I am 4 degrees retarded, so I'm going to move the crank sprocket to the 4* ADV setting and recheck it. Piston to valve clearance is a whopping .250 + on both valves. I checked at 15 degrees BTDC, at TDC and 15 degrees ATDC.
The question I asked many times was What do you do to correct the timing if it is waaay off? A few guys said that the dowel hole was drilled or filed oversize and a wedge was installed. With the timing cover off, I was able to see that the cam gear bolt and washer would be what held the "timing wedge" in place. i just couldn't visualize how that would work until I saw it in front of me.
I'll admit that I was intimidated by all of this. The degree process was made much easier once I pulled the spark plugs, making the engine much easier to spin over. Like many other things, experience makes a job easier. If I had experience doing this I may have known a few shortcuts.

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

Its a bit different with the engine in the car and the heads are on the engine.

Hi Greg. I don't doubt this would be much less fun with engine in car and heads on...
To correct timing, I know of 4 methods -
1. Multi keyed crank sprockets.
2. Offset crank keys.
3. Offset dowels for cam sprocket.
4. Combination of any of the above.

 

[Kern Dog]

Yesterday I went out to work on the car. I pulled the crank gear and moved it to the 4 degree ADV position, then put the hub and degree wheel back on. After monkeying around with it, the numbers changed from an installed 110 to a 103. Huh ??? Now I'm thinking that theres no way of knowing for sure where I am with sloppy tools.
The hub has never fit perfectly on the crank snout. It has about a 2 degree slop when moving from clockwise to CCW. This pisses me off because I really can't rely on any numbers when dealing with the slop. Its like a tape measure that stretches when you pull it.
The hub has 3 notches in it and I'm using the smallest/narrowest one and it still has some play. The set screw has a flat edge so I doubt it would damage the crank. I've tightened it down but I'm about half paranoid that I'll snap off my Allen wrench trying to get it tight enough. Maybe part of the problem is/was that I was trying to turn the engine over with the plugs in and the rocker arms on. Since then I have pulled the plugs out (To allow the engine to spin over easier) and removed the rocker arms. (To put less of a load against rotating) I've bent 2 piston stops from when I was turning the engine over with the plugs in. It was hard to tell when I was hitting the stop because the engine was so hard to spin over. The flimsy type of piston stop I was using was a 14 mm insert that was threaded on the inside for a 3/8" bolt to pass through. Being in on an angle and sorta weak made it easy to bend when the piston came up. I ordered a robust solid brass Piston Stop made by Crane Cams. This one has a hole through it to allow compression to bleed out. Now when I get back to it, I'll hopefully be able to accurately establish TDC and get this dude figured out.

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

I feel your pain Greg, but you're almost there...

Is the degree wheel fixed to the hub which is sloppy on the crank snout? If so that sux, as your TDC won't be accurate. Perhaps a bit of shim or a drop of loctite...

 

[Kern Dog]

I feel your pain Greg, but you're almost there...

Is the degree wheel fixed to the hub which is sloppy on the crank snout? If so that sux, as your TDC won't be accurate. Perhaps a bit of shim or a drop of loctite...

The hub has a semi-loose fit on the snout and Woodruff key. If all I did was turn the engine in one direction, it would be fine. Its when I reverse a rotation that the hub slips and hits the other edge of the Woodruff key. Yeah, the hub has a collar that the degree wheel fits on, then another collar spins on to hold the wheel in place.

The last few days I've been cutting up a 68 Plymouth wagon, so I was away from the car. I hope to be back to the car tomorrow or Monday.

 

[Hemirunner]

I have lots of stainless steel shim stock that I fold over the key and tighten up the fit of the crank socket. Can you find something like that to use?

 

[67 B-body]

From the May 1997 issue of High Performance Mopar - how to check cam timing using nothing more than:

One Feeler Gauge
One Straight Edge
Two 3/8" drive Craftsman 17mm deep sockets

They claim cam timing can be checked in five minutes this way (I guess five minutes once all the tools are out and everything is opened up).

1. Rotate #1 piston to TDC exhaust stroke, make sure you are at the center of dwell.
2. Pull out both lifters for cylinder #1 and replace with the 3/8" drive Craftsman 17mm deep sockets (which are two-thousands shy of the diameter of a Chrysler lifter).
3. Lay a short straightedge across the top of both sockets. If your cam is installed "straight up", there will be no gap between the two sockets in terms of height.
4. If you find the socket in place of the exhaust lifter is higher than the intake, the camshaft is retarded.
5. If you find the socket on intake side higher than exhaust side, this means the cam is advanced.
6. To measure the amount in degrees how much the cam is either advanced or retarded, use the feeler gauge to measure the distance between whichever socket is lower and the straightedge (with the straightedge placed across both sockets).
7. Six thousands of an inch difference in lifter height is equal to one degree of cam timing.
8. Make some measurements and calculations to find out how advanced or retarded the cam timing is.
9. If you want to advance the cam, remove the timing chain (being careful the crankshaft doesn't move), then rotate the camshaft slightly in the direction of engine rotation until you see the socket on the intake side rise higher than the exhaust side.
10. Measure again using the straightedge and feeler gauge (six thousands of an inch = one degree) and choose the correct offset dowel or key.

This method can also be used to check the condition of the cam.

1. Rotate #1 piston to TDC compression
2. Check cylinder #6 to make sure you have the same timing you found when cylinder #1 was on TDC exhaust.
3. If the specs are different, the cam is probably bad.

Disclaimer: I haven't tried this method but it seems easier than using a degree wheel. Just thought it seemed like a cool, easy way to do it and was posting to see if anyone has done it this way or may find it helpful.

Old man Koffel does this..... He ran the Flintstone Flyer back in the day... I ordered my camshaft through them and buy my Penn Grade oil from them too...
Anyhow,,, he said that's how he always checked his camshaft timing,,, with a straight edge across the lifters. He just found TDC, Put a straight edge across the lifters, and if it wasn't flat on both lifters he would adjust the cam position until it was....

- - - Updated - - -

I used the enlarged camshaft dowl pin hole with offset bushing method.... The trick is to get the bushing in at the right position, because the damned thing is round and the hole is just as round in the timing gear! As you rotate the thing trying to get it aligned in the cam hole, you change the position of the offset center hole....

 

[Kern Dog]

I have lots of stainless steel shim stock that I fold over the key and tighten up the fit of the crank socket. Can you find something like that to use?

I think a sliver of some thin metal may work.

 

[Kern Dog]

August 23:
I decided to stick with having the degree wheel bolted directly to the crank using the stock dampner bolt. ZERO slop this time. I used the solid brass piston stop and established TDC yesterday.
Today I checked the cam centerline. First number came in at 73 degrees. Second was 139. Total: 212. I almost crapped a brick! The cam card calls for an installed centerline of 106 and there I am at the very number. The timing set is at the ZERO/Dot-to-dot setting. Before, it showed a centerline of 110. This was with the sloppy fit crank turning hub. Hard to believe the slop was worth 4 degrees.
Nice to know that the specs matched up without having to do any additional work. I just had to pop in to report this! Now I'm going back out to finish.

 

[tallhair]

congrats man !!

 

[Kern Dog]

Thanks!
I just changed the valvesprings and set valve lash. Now I'm wondering if I should have left a greater amount of lash since the cam card gives "hot lash" specs. I set the intakes to .020 and the exhausts to .022. The instruction sheet didn't mention anything about cold lash or any special instructions about lash with aluminum heads.

 

[Kern Dog]

I checked the Lunati website, but there wasn't any info on setting valve lash at all. I looked around in some archives and found that most say that with aluminum heads and an iron block, the cold lash setting is .006 tighter than the hot setting. This means that I should set them at .014 INT and .016 EXH cold.

 

[Kern Dog]

Success*****Success*****Success*****
The cam break-in is done!
I'll back up a bit. I went back and RElashed the valves to .014/.016 to account for the aluminum heads. I preoiled the engine using a drill and the hex tool. To make sure I didn't screw up, I brought out the current Mopar Action magazine with the article on "First Fire". I did all my usual stuff plus what was written in the article. The engine did start up within 2 seconds and I had my helper bring it up to run between 2600-2800 rpms. I was happy to see no leaks anywhere and all systems looked good. Oil pressure good, fuel pressure at 7-8 lbs and it sounded great. At about the 15 minute mark, the fuel pressure dropped to below 3 lbs and the engine stumbled. The filter looked almost dry. I had Jeff shut it down. At first I thought it might be overheating even though the guage was in the middle of its range. I was using an additional box fan set in front of the radiator. I let it sit about 2 1/2 hours with the box fan running.
After the cooldown, I figured I'd need another 15 minutes of run time to complete the break in. It started up and ran great... for about 10 minutes when the fuel pressure dropped again. At idle, this pump would always run between 7-9 lbs before. I wonder if the break-in just used more fuel than the pump could deliver?
I shut it down a second time. After a few minutes, I restarted it. The pressure stayed at 6 lbs for the last 5 minutes.

I read in another thread here that a FBBO member had a failure with this same Holley 12-440-11 fuel pump. This is my second one. The other split at the inlet when I tried to tighten a fitting to stop a leak. Does anyone have a suggestion for a reliable mechanical pump?
Also, what are your thoughts on WHEN to change the oil? After the break in or a few hundred miles later?

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Greg,

I changed the oil directly after the Camshaft break in, and once again in the following few hundred miles. Always attempt to add a Zinc Additive with your oil changes as well if using standard oils.

A good reliable mechanical pump would probably be a carter hemi based mechanical fuel pump. That is what I am running, but I also am using a pusher 'free flow' electric 95GPH that is internally regulated at 7psi to keep 7-8 PSI from idle to WOT along with a Mallory fuel pressure regulator. Mechanical will only pull 3PSI through the Aeromotive filter and Electric pump alone back at the cell'. The reason I done this, the D.C. manual states to install an electric pusher (in their case, two electrics) in the rear to push fuel to the front. Has worked great so far..

By the way, my .590MP was installed dot-to-dot. Not a single issue, and performs great. I am not worried, as unless you have access to an engine dyno, car dyno, or personal track time can you really 'feel' the difference? Some combo's like lots of retard, some like lots of advancement.. Hard to tell which is right unless you plan on tearing the engine down after a few dyno pulls and going again. You may have an answer after paying the dyno operator a grand or two.. LS1 guys and Ford guys have been doing dot-to-dot forever. Most GM/LS1-LS3 shops install dot-to-dot unless it is a full out race application. Had a few cams in my LX Coupe (mustang), couldn't tell an ounce of difference between the two different cams installed dot-to-dot and when I got a 'much bigger' one installed and degreed by a local pro ford engine builder on the street..

 

[Kern Dog]

After my last post, I REread the Lunati sheet. They tell to change the oil directly after the cam break in, so I'm doing it tomorrow. I have Valvoline VR1 10w30 and another bottle of Comp Cams supplement. I plan to do this at every oil change.

I would prefer to stay mechanical as far as fuel pumps if I can. RustyRatRod suggested a Carter pump too over on FABO. He also suggested a regulator. I've never used one before, so I guess I'll got more work to do.

 

[Kern Dog]

Last night I was thinking about this some more. I think that maybe my fuel problems were due to heat soak.
The car ran great until the fuel started bubbling in the filter, which at the same time the pressure dropped. If the fuel got hot and started to boil, the pressure drops. It was 94 degrees when I was running the engine. I was in a garage with limited airflow. The car has a 5 blade fan and no shroud. The helper fan wasn't very big. It is quite likely that the fuel just got hot from limited airflow and once it cooled down, it was okay again.