Looking for ideas on a new 440 build

[kiwigtx]

Hi guys, I am looking for ideas on how to squeeze maximum power out of a stock appearing 440 engine. This will be a new build, so am looking for tips from those of you who have gone this way.
I want to have a stock looking engine, with stock heads, intake, exhaust manifolds, valve covers, fuel pump and others accessories attached. I am picking it will be a hydraulic cam to keep the stamped rockers etc.
Also looking for a good source for a 'new' cast 440 bare block - do they exist?
Running power brakes, so will still need some vacuum, so I guess cam and compression will still be in the sensible zone.
I have a really good machine shop available, and he loves MoPar's....but it would be nice to have a few different opinions to work with before drawing up a plan.

I have a line on a '70 F440, but the block is untested, and the last known condition was 'it blew up' (a very technical term in my view), so it's probably not worth the gamble. :no:

Thanks in advance.

 

[Badvert65]

Stroke it, stealth heads painted engine color. The rest is internal so you can get wild if you really want to.

 

[67Satty]

I agree with the above. The rockers will be hidden so why not adjustables to give more cam options? The Mopar Performance .528 lift mechanical cam is supposed to work good with exhaust manifolds for some reason. You could get the exhaust manifolds extrude honed for some hidden gains. The Carter M6903 mechanical fuel pump will do the job - it won't look exactly like the stock one but close enough. My cam is 238 @ .050 duration, 284 advertised duration and it gives me 14-15 inches of vacuum at idle - that should be enough for power brakes - so you should be able to go as much duration as that and be OK.

Maybe join a F.A.S.T racing or Pure Stock racing message board, I bet those guys would have lots of ideas (if you can get them to share them). I tried asking about traction tricks once and got nothing but the sound of crickets.

 

[kiwigtx]

I agree with the above. The rockers will be hidden so why not adjustables to give more cam options? The Mopar Performance .528 lift mechanical cam is supposed to work good with exhaust manifolds for some reason. You could get the exhaust manifolds extrude honed for some hidden gains. The Carter M6903 mechanical fuel pump will do the job - it won't look exactly like the stock one but close enough. My cam is 238 @ .050 duration, 284 advertised duration and it gives me 14-15 inches of vacuum at idle - that should be enough for power brakes - so you should be able to go as much duration as that and be OK.

Maybe join a F.A.S.T racing or Pure Stock racing message board, I bet those guys would have lots of ideas (if you can get them to share them). I tried asking about traction tricks once and got nothing but the sound of crickets.

Sounds good from both of you guys so far. My traction tricks so far have been low tyre pressure, clamp front of rear leaf springs, soften torsion bars and a pinion snubber.

 

[Meep-Meep]

My only issue is the stock exhaust manifolds. Anything you do to drastically improve breathing and scavenging will hit a brick wall with those iron logs. IQ52 recently did some testing and found no difference when using HP manifolds over logs but he did like headers. I know the FAST guys use them with great success but they also spend a ton of money on their builds. But for a low buck guy like me, either live with the results of manifolds or use headers. Well known engine builder Chuck Lofgren says headers are worth 25 HP. We were talking about hemi's when he said that and those have some pretty good manifolds. It's possible headers are worth even more than 25 HP over the wedge manifolds.

I'm not a big fan of the stamped rocker either. Much more than the stock spring and you may not have a very stable valve train at high RPM, not to mention accurate translation of the cam profile to the valve. Run a good steel roller tip or the old style iron adjustables - and both with 3/8" push rods. I will say it again, a 112 LSA cam is magic in a daily driven 440.

 

[benno440]

don't moparproshop.com and indy make new blocks?
I agree stroke it to 512, put stealth heads on it and some good headers, it will look stock as you can barely see the headers on these big engines anyway.

 

[tallhair]

I agree with the above. The rockers will be hidden so why not adjustables to give more cam options? The Mopar Performance .528 lift mechanical cam is supposed to work good with exhaust manifolds for some reason. You could get the exhaust manifolds extrude honed for some hidden gains. The Carter M6903 mechanical fuel pump will do the job - it won't look exactly like the stock one but close enough. My cam is 238 @ .050 duration, 284 advertised duration and it gives me 14-15 inches of vacuum at idle - that should be enough for power brakes - so you should be able to go as much duration as that and be OK.

Maybe join a F.A.S.T racing or Pure Stock racing message board, I bet those guys would have lots of ideas (if you can get them to share them). I tried asking about traction tricks once and got nothing but the sound of crickets.

I recall extrusion honing was quite the rage and many articles on it back in ~ 1990 timeframe. Anyone know how much that costs and who does it? Also anyone have a link to any test data?

Sorry to butt in Kiwi but figure you are probably interested as well since you're planning to run magnum manifolds

I googled and found this: http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/...4_buildup_1969_440_magnum_engine/viewall.html

Phase III: Exhaustive Research
With the carb adding to the breathing capabilities on the induction side, the next step was to look for breathing improvements on the exhaust side. The 440 HiPo exhaust manifolds on the test 440 were a respectable design as exhaust manifolds go. The factory manifolds have a definite advantage in a street application-not in brute power output, but in quiet, leak-free operation. Move into a set of tube headers, and usually there are some compromises. All headers come with noisier operation and restrict access to engine and chassis components, while some poorly designed types will interfere with items in the engine bay, create rattles, cost ground clearance, and often leak.
That said, many enthusiasts are determined to stick with the factory manifolds, both to avoid the above problems and for the factory looks. Although this engine had original 440 HiPo manifolds, these are getting scarcer by the year. Year One has accurate reproductions of the stock 383/440 high-performance manifolds available, with the bonus of a high-temperature gray cast-iron-colored metallic ceramic coating, which should banish the problem of unsightly, rusty, manifold surfaces. As part of this dyno evaluation, we finished the test manifolds with the coating system to be used on the Year One repops. The durability was excellent under the severe high-heat dyno test environment.
The first exhaust-system upgrade was to swap the stock exhaust manifolds for a set that were Extrude Honed.The Extrude Hone system forces a thick slurry of abrasive paste through a passage under high pressure, which removes material, enlarging the passage and leaving a smooth surface. With the Extrude Honed manifolds in place, the 440 made 367.1 hp at 5100 rpm, and 481.7 lb/ft, a gain at peak of 0.9 hp, and 7 lb/ft (Tables 1&2; Test III). Interestingly, the biggest gains were in torque lower in the rpm range, predominately below the torque peak, with less power added by peak horsepower and beyond. In this application, the Extrude Honed manifolds offered some performance benefit and will hold their clean, detailed appearance over the originals, but are no substitute for a set of tube headers.

Even a cheapo set of headers provides a big increase in power, if the non-stock appearance and other potential compromises are not an issue. To minimize the drawbacks in a tube header, it pays to shop quality. For this test, we used a set of Hooker Competition series 1 7/8-inch street headers #5903, that feature heavier gauge construction than Hooker's race Super Competition series. For street/strip applications, larger tube headers are of questionable benefit, but magnify the fit and access problems. For street and strip use, 1 7/8-inch headers are more than adequate on 440s with 500 or more horsepower and they fit in B- and E-Body chassis (we've run a 440 with 670 hp with the very same pair of 1 7/8-inch headers used in this dyno test). The Hooker headers were bolted to the otherwise unchanged test engine, which promptly responded with 391 hp at 4900 rpm, and 501 lb/ft at 3300 (Tables 1&2; Test IV). The entire torque curve was up handsomely, right from the bottom of our pull to the top. This sweet-idling 440 street engine, with the stock heads, intake, and camshaft, was pulling down some power to be reckoned with! No two ways about it, real headers work.

Cut to the charts .. more info in the full article

Dyno Horsepower
RPM	Test 1	Test 2	Test 3	Test 4	Test 5	Test 6	Test 7
2600	218.9	219.8	225.2	232.8	225.6	221.7	219.6
2800	239.8	240.8	246.6	253.3	246.9	242	243.1
3000	260.9	263.9	269.7	279.1	270.7	264.5	270.4
3200	282.3	287.8	292.7	303.9	296.6	292.1	301.6
3400	298.5	307	311.8	324.1	321.1	317.4	327.2
3600	313	323.4	326.4	340.8	343.8	341.4	354.6
3800	323.3	334	337.5	355.1	362.7	360.9	378.4
4000	330.5	342.5	343.8	364.1	379.2	376.5	397.3
4200	337.6	348.5	350.6	369.2	392.4	389.7	414.4
4400	345.9	353.7	357.	376.9	402.1	398.8	426.8
4600	352.2	360.3	361	383.6	410.9	407.9	440.9
4800	354.3	363.6	365.9	391.4	419	414.4	453.5
4900	357.8	364.9	366.2	391.4	419.9	415.7	456.7
5000	357.6	365	366.7	390.9	420.1	414.4	459
5100	356.2	366.2	367.1	388.7	419.4	413.1	459.6
5200	355	364.1	366.1	386	414.3	409.3	461.9
5400	346.7	356.5	357.5	377.3	402.4	397.8	464.6
5600	338	346.3	353	371.3	394.6	390.3	454.9

Dyno Torque
Superflow Dyno
rpm	Test 1	Test 2	Test 3	Test 4	Test 5	Test 6	Test 7
2600	442.2	444.1	454.8	470.2	455.7	447.9	443.6
2800	449.7	451.7	462.5	475.2	463.2	454.0	456.0
3000	456.8	462.0	472.2	488.5	474.0	463.1	473.4
3200	463.3	472.3	480.3	498.8	486.8	479.5	495.0
3300	463.5	474.4	481.6	501.0	492.7	486.0	501.6
3400	461.0	474.3	481.7	500.6	496.0	490.4	505.5
3600	456.6	471.9	476.2	497.2	501.6	491.1	517.3
3700	452.0	467.3	472.1	493.7	502.8	499.2	519.6
3800	446.9	461.7	466.4	490.7	501.3	498.8	523.0
4000	434.0	449.7	451.4	478.1	497.9	494.3	521.7
4200	422.1	435.7	438.5	461.7	490.7	487.3	518.2
4400	412.9	422.2	426.1	449.9	480.0	476.0	509.5
4600	402.1	411.3	412.2	438.0	469.2	465.7	503.4
4800	387.7	397.8	400.4	428.3	458.5	453.4	496.2
5000	375.7	383.4	385.2	410.6	441.3	435.3	482.2
5200	358.5	367.8	369.7	389.9	418.4	413.4	466.5
5400	337.2	346.8	347.7	367.0	391.4	386.9	451.9
5600	317.0	324.8	331.0	348.2	370.1	366.1	426.6

Test Descriptions
Test 1:	Stock 440 Magnum
Test 2:	Swap to Holley 850 CFM vacuum secondary carb
Test 3:	Swap to Extrude Honed exhaust manifolds
Test 4:	Swap to Hooker 171/48-inch exhaust headers
Test 5:	Swap stock intake to Holley Street Dominator
Test 6:	Add 1-inch open plastic spacer under carb
Test 7:	Swap factory HP cam for Competition Cams' Xtreme Energy 274H; Comp #1321 rockers; and Comp Hi-Tech 5/16-inch pushrods

So in this test:

Extrusion honed manifolds were worth 0.9 HP over stock magnum manifolds
Extrusion honed manifolds were worth 7.3 TQ over stock magnum manifolds

1 7/8" Headers were worth 25.2 HP over over stock magnum manifolds
1 7/8" Headers were worth 26.6 TQ over over stock magnum manifolds

1 7/8" Headers were worth 24.3 HP over over Extrusion honed manifolds
1 7/8" Headers were worth 19.3 TQ over over Extrusion honed manifolds

300 RPM variation peak HP 4800/4900 vs 4900 vs 5100
100 RPM variation in peak TQ 3300 vs 3400

Hopefully I didn't screw up the numbers but if my subtraction is correct it looks like headers are in fact worth ~ 25 HP on a pretty stock HP 440 as has always been a number tossed around and extrusion honing doesn't net a significant gain overs stock magnum manifolds. As a result I wouldn't waste money on messing with extrusion honing a stock set and we see what the looks and convenience of HP manifolds cost in power left on the table so to speak. I'm still planning to run HP manifolds but this was a fun exercise for me.

What would be interesting to me is tests on a stroked B or RB with all performance mods / changes made for a stroker that was set up to run power brakes and run well on the street and only diff Headers vs stock manifolds testing. My guess is not more than 50 HP diff and if the Magnum netted say 525 vs 575 HP that would be good enough for a car that get's driven quite a bit. Maybe IQ52 will do that test or something similar one day or maybe he has

 

[Dennis H]

A 500 HP at crank seems good for street. TTI's that are ceramic reduce uderhood temps by 100 degrees and reduce weight. No other way for me and I too like stock appearance EXCEPT for headers. Smoke em if you got em. I do.

 

[sleepar]

Headers on a big block can be a nightmare for hardly any to no gain.. post those logs for sale and see how many inquiries you get... port and polish and gasket match the factory exaust manifolds and then run flow #'s
25 horse power sounds like a lot of gain if we're talking out board motors you're belts Rob more power than that and for the price of those ***** headers go belt less

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

Headers on a big block can be a nightmare for hardly any to no gain.. post those logs for sale and see how many inquiries you get... port and polish and gasket match the factory exaust manifolds and then run flow #'s
25 horse power sounds like a lot of gain if we're talking out board motors you're belts Rob more power than that and for the price of those ***** headers go belt less

Please come join us in the land where punctuation and science are used to actually improve life, you may enjoy it.

If you want to run manifolds, a custom camshaft would be a no-brainer. No off the shelf cam provides enough duration split to work effectively w/ what would be a severely exhaust limited combo. 500+ci, Max ported Super Stealths, a factory painted max ported aftermarket intake w/ logos removed, and a nice custom solid roller would do it for me. Stamped rockers are for stock builds or the trash bin.

Sorry, Meep, there is nothing magical about 112 LS. That # is simply a byproduct of valve events, nothing more.

 

[IQ52]

This thread has brought back to mind one thing I didn't report when we did the low compression dyno tests on the 440. The engine retains a lot of internal heat with the cast iron manifolds. We were testing with an engine thermostat, radiator and a box fan for cooling and were having a difficult time keeping the engine cool because the box fan just didn't push enough air through the radiator in the dyno room. The minute we switched to the tubing headers the engine was far easier to keep cool during the longer runs. I mean it was very noticeable.

 

[kiwigtx]

This thread has brought back to mind one thing I didn't report when we did the low compression dyno tests on the 440. The engine retains a lot of internal heat with the cast iron manifolds. We were testing with an engine thermostat, radiator and a box fan for cooling and were having a difficult time keeping the engine cool because the box fan just didn't push enough air through the radiator in the dyno room. The minute we switched to the tubing headers the engine was far easier to keep cool during the longer runs. I mean it was very noticeable.

This is interesting, as I always felt that the engine temperature stayed hot longer with the exhaust manifolds fitted.