looking for the 727 torqueflite guru's ( 440-68 GTX )

[dave5237]

Hello all. This is a continuation to my stalling in gear problem. Spun the tranny over in neutral to see if the bands were to tight and she turned over fine. Also took the flex bolts out to see if there was play in the torque converter and there was. THE GUY WHO BUILT THE TRANSMISSION THINKS THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE NEW MODIFIED VALVE BODY HE PUT IN. DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE HERE. THANKS.

 

[Cranky]

Spinning the trans over in neutral doesn't tell you much. How bout more info? Does it shift through the gears and act well but you only stall when you stop? Is the engine stock? Other words, what is your combination? What did the guy do to the VB?

 

[PDFROGMAN]

where in NY are you located? I can come over and look at it for you easier than asking lots of questions

 

[dave5237]

Spinning the trans over in neutral doesn't tell you much. How bout more info? Does it shift through the gears and act well but you only stall when you stop? Is the engine stock? Other words, what is your combination? What did the guy do to the VB?

This car stalls in any gear even on jack stands with no load but runs perfect in neutral and park. I have eliminated carb, vacuum leaks ( runs a constant 15 vacuum and even disconnected brake booster ), Timing set perfect,starts fine,does not diesel. Heres a little info on the engine. It is a 440 punched 40 over, lunati cam (480 lift,advertised duration-290,230 duration at .050 inch lift, stock manifold, edelbrock thunder series carb 800 cfm ) Torque converter cant be stock with that cam but dont know whats in there. Now the converter parts, Modified valve body ,alto racing clutches, new low-reverse band and servo upgrade kit, frt. band rasbestos pro series. Tranny parts from A&A transmission in indianna. Valve body # 22770-4L. i LOOKED IT UP ON THERE WEB SITE.

This car ran just fine with all these parts years ago except the carb ( CAN RUN THE RPM'S FROM 650 ALL THE WAY UP RIGHT NOW ). I believe the valve body is the problem here. The reason for turning car over in nuetral is to see if the bands were to tight, and the converter has play in it before bolted up to flex plate.

 

[racedodge]

yes it sounds like the valve body... i bet his modifications (or whoever did them) went ahead and is creating a mutual flow between forward and reverse gears causing the engine to stall. replace the valve body with a stock unit to see if it goes away. if it does, have the guy fix the VB, replace it, or give you your money back.

 

[Cranky]

Even if the low/reverse bands are way too tight, the thing won't go once it tries to shift into 2nd but the converter should still allow the engine to idle in gear....even if the trans is locked up.

 

[Photon440]

Even if the low/reverse bands are way too tight, the thing won't go once it tries to shift into 2nd but the converter should still allow the engine to idle in gear....even if the trans is locked up.

Have to agree with this. Or, if it's locking up the low and reverse at the same time as racedodge suggested, that shouldn't stall it either. That's what a trans-brake mod does for drag racing. No matter what is happening inside your transmission, your torque convertor should allow enough slip to keep the engine running.

-=Photon440=-

 

[67 coronet]

you are sure this is the trans loading down the eng and not an electrical issue.just a thought to consider.

 

[Greg Ducato]

if the converter sprag has failed or the internal components of the converter are locked together during the welding process, it will induce that kind of problem, I would focus my attention on the converter.

 

[racedodge]

if the converter sprag has failed or the internal components of the converter are locked together during the welding process, it will induce that kind of problem, I would focus my attention on the converter.

great point Greg D, and it led me to think of this since its a fresh engine/trans rebuild.. did you put 1-2 quarts of transmission fluid in your converter prior to installation?

 

[Hemi Rebel]

The only thing trans related that would cause it is the converter. If it worked before, it should work now, unless something happened to it. Dropped or something worked its way inside. Can you feather the throttle when easing it into gear and see if it stays running? Btw, where is it idling now with the new carb?can you get the idle down to 800 range, give or take say 50?

At this point, you may need to either find someone in the area to take the car to, or someone in the mopar community in your area to come over and check it out. Trying to diagnose things like this over the internet, or over the phone or whatever can be impossible. Some problems can be so common that the answers are simple, like a bad ballast resistor, but other times not so much. If i were closer i would jump at the chance to help. For my own benefit and experience as well as yours.

 

[dave5237]

The only thing trans related that would cause it is the converter. If it worked before, it should work now, unless something happened to it. Dropped or something worked its way inside. Can you feather the throttle when easing it into gear and see if it stays running? Btw, where is it idling now with the new carb?can you get the idle down to 800 range, give or take say 50?

At this point, you may need to either find someone in the area to take the car to, or someone in the mopar community in your area to come over and check it out. Trying to diagnose things like this over the internet, or over the phone or whatever can be impossible. Some problems can be so common that the answers are simple, like a bad ballast resistor, but other times not so much. If i were closer i would jump at the chance to help. For my own benefit and experience as well as yours.

Thanks. I am going to try to answer a lot of questions asked here. With the new carb can get the rpm's to 650 up ( have it set at 850 now ). Had the rpm,s all over the place and she still stalls. I have the valve body out, do a air pressure test in the ports and then I am going to throw the old one in there to see what happens. I did throw oil in the converter. The converter was in the corner of my garage wrapped up so it never left my site. I dont think this is electrical like someone said because I can feather it into gear but she runs real bad and eventually stalls. The tranny guy talked to a&a transmission and they think something stuck in the valve body because she sat 2 years before running tranny. Thanks guys.

 

[racedodge]

Thanks. I am going to try to answer a lot of questions asked here. With the new carb can get the rpm's to 650 up ( have it set at 850 now ). Had the rpm,s all over the place and she still stalls. I have the valve body out, do a air pressure test in the ports and then I am going to throw the old one in there to see what happens. I did throw oil in the converter. The converter was in the corner of my garage wrapped up so it never left my site. I dont think this is electrical like someone said because I can feather it into gear but she runs real bad and eventually stalls. The tranny guy talked to a&a transmission and they think something stuck in the valve body because she sat 2 years before running tranny. Thanks guys.

awaiting patiently

 

[451Mopar]

Thanks. I am going to try to answer a lot of questions asked here. With the new carb can get the rpm's to 650 up ( have it set at 850 now ). Had the rpm,s all over the place and she still stalls. I have the valve body out, do a air pressure test in the ports and then I am going to throw the old one in there to see what happens. I did throw oil in the converter. The converter was in the corner of my garage wrapped up so it never left my site. I dont think this is electrical like someone said because I can feather it into gear but she runs real bad and eventually stalls. The tranny guy talked to a&a transmission and they think something stuck in the valve body because she sat 2 years before running tranny. Thanks guys.

To me it sounds like a fuel delivery problem or vacuum leak? I would get a cheap electric fuel pump and several feet of rubber hose and just pull the fuel from a gas can to test with. Remove the current fuel line at the carb and plug it, then connect the output of the electric pump. Use some temporary wiring to the battery to power the pump.

I had a stalling problem like you are describing, and found the rubber fuel line betweer the fuel tank pickup and hard line was cracked and sucking in air. It would provide just a bit of fuel to where the engine ran in park, but would die when in gear.

 

[PDFROGMAN]

I have built just a few TF's in my time without knowing what exactly was done or replaced during the rebuild it's tough to speculate. I had a long phone conversation with Dave about this it sounds to me that rear clutches are always applied (whether hydraulically due to VB or manually due to error during rebuild)
so when the it's put in reverse it locks up the unit which will stall the car with a stock converter. he is experiencing difficulty started in neutral also.

most units built with a trans brake will have a converter with at least a 3000 rpm stall so yes in that situation the converter will allow the motor to run keep in mind the RPM in which you will apply the brake and how long it will be under load. stock converter can have stall ranges from 1400(motor homes) to 2300 rpm.

ultimately I think he is going to have to pull the unit and have an experienced re builder go through the unit. I have seen the best re builders get bitten during a rebuild due to hard part interchangeability. something a simple as the snap ring that holds the Belleville spring in place on the rear clutches not seated properly will cause the Belleville spring to break or shift and not allow the piston to compress leaving the rear clutches stuck in applied position

without going through the unit it's all guess work

 

[Photon440]

I don't quite understand this - it shouldn't matter if the rear clutches are applied, or if something is locked up, or if the entire transmission is totally seized up inside. It wouldn't be any different than a normal car with the brake on...nothing inside the transmission is moving if the wheels aren't turning. The torque convertor, unless it has a stall speed much lower than idle, should allow the engine to keep running.

-=Photon440=-

 

[racedodge]

I don't quite understand this - it shouldn't matter if the rear clutches are applied, or if something is locked up, or if the entire transmission is totally seized up inside. It wouldn't be any different than a normal car with the brake on...nothing inside the transmission is moving if the wheels aren't turning. The torque convertor, unless it has a stall speed much lower than idle, should allow the engine to keep running.

-=Photon440=-

hence we are looking at torque converter failure as well as internal transmission issues.. those combined would stall an engine.

 

[Hemi Rebel]

The valve body is out correct? What was in the pan? Any debris or chunks of broken parts? Bands intact and have proper adjustment?

 

[dave5237]

The valve body is out correct? What was in the pan? Any debris or chunks of broken parts? Bands intact and have proper adjustment?

The valve body is now out and will do the air test ( no broken parts yet ) . Will bolt in the old valve body in and try it out this weekend. I think the thing to keep in mind is that the tranny got the most work done here from someone who does not rebuild torque flites very often, sat for 2 yrs. and is a ford guy. Engine rebuild by me, but this car fires up on the dime and runs great in park. If this were a fuel delivery problem ( leak somewhere or sucking air ). She would sputter at the fuel psi gauge a little bit. Holds rock steady at 7 psi. I guess it is a process of elimination. I do think there are possibly multiple tranny problems here like racedodge and pd frogman said ( but I will never say never to anything else ). Thanks.

 

[oldbee]

Dave--have a question---does it only stall in reverse and not in drive?I'm sorry it's late,and I won't know the answer no matter which way... But, this gets more interesting as time goes on. I have to go along with the convertor slippage guys,still should idle. Unless maybe, you've got case porosity shooting fluid across two channels in valve body letting forward&reverse engage at the same time.BUT STILL, t.convertor slippage?????