My 440 Build Thead (clueless builder)

[1967coronet440]

Don’t know much about the strength of the 4 speeds someone else will chime in on that, if you plan on racing that thing at all or putting sticky tires on it the 8 3/4 days will be numbered.

 

[moparnation74]

Don’t know much about the strength of the 4 speeds someone else will chime in on that, if you plan on racing that thing at all or putting sticky tires on it the 8 3/4 days will be numbered.

A833 properly rebuilt are very strong transmissions......Other than changing gear ratios or 18 vs 23 spline there is not anything special to a four speed....you will destroy that 8 3/4 and a U joint before damaging the trans....

budget and performance is not a marriage that will last either.....wait till you start breaking stuff

 

[Mike67]

Don't know how to copy the FB link off of my tablet, sorry.
The group's are
Mopar Swap & Share
Mopar Drag Racing Classifieds
Mopar Unlimited
There are a bunch of them out there, just type in key words like Mopar, B Body Mopar etc and it will bring them up.
I tried to search for them but I didn't see them posted...it has been a few days since I saw it. But they come up often...B1s, Source heads, Stage 6...just gotta dig...
Sorry I wasnt more help with that...

 

[wsutard]

No racing for me. Street tires, no slicks. Maybe I’ll take it to the drag strip once, just to say I got it off the jackstands.

 

[Cornpatch MO]

Upgrade the trans and rear end? Are the 4 speed and 8 3/4 not capable? Didn’t they come in 440s originally?

A fairly mild 440 with 4 speed and 8 3/4 --you put tires on that get a some traction, I guarantee you will break stuff if you try to launch, let alone a big inch stroker. Guess how I found that out--after everyone tried to tell me !! .............................MO

 

[5.7 hemi]

I smell Dana 60 in your future. Street tires will help prolong the inevitable.

 

[wsutard]

A833 properly rebuilt are very strong transmissions......Other than changing gear ratios or 18 vs 23 spline there is not anything special to a four speed....you will destroy that 8 3/4 and a U joint before damaging the trans....

budget and performance is not a marriage that will last either.....wait till you start breaking stuff

My trans is 23 spline. Can I convert it to an 18? I’m assuming 18s are stronger than 23 since they came with the Hemi.

 

[wsutard]

I smell Dana 60 in your future. Street tires will help prolong the inevitable.

One thing to note is I have had the rear end rebuilt by Randys Ring and Pinion, aka, Youkon Gear. They put a better locker in and 25% stronger axles.

I wonder if this will help? Only one way to find out!

 

[5.7 hemi]

It’s not the Trans per say, as much as it’s the rear. The 8 3/4 is pretty stout, but with 600ftlbs., sticky tires, and leaving at 5k, it won’t take that abuse for long.

 

[moparnation74]

My trans is 23 spline. Can I convert it to an 18? I’m assuming 18s are stronger than 23 since they came with the Hemi.

No need to spend the extra coin...IMHO..

Yes, they can be converted.....

 

[Challenger340]

We did some very cost effective 440 builds(500 to 550hp a few years ago), pump gas, Flat tappet Hydraulic Cams, etc., using the Stealths, then Dyno'd of course for the results.
They are documented over at DC.Com, might be a good read if for nothing other than ideas ?
We still get LOTS of calls to duplicate them even now, but we just don't have TIME, because to be honest here, they just don't "pay" as well as other work we have ?

Look under "lowly 440" thread here:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106687.0.html

 

[wsutard]

We did some very cost effective 440 builds(500 to 550hp a few years ago), pump gas, Flat tappet Hydraulic Cams, etc., using the Stealths, then Dyno'd of course for the results.
They are documented over at DC.Com, might be a good read if for nothing other than ideas ?
We still get LOTS of calls to duplicate them even now, but we just don't have TIME.

Look under "lowly 440" thread here:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106687.0.html

Interesting stuff. I noticed how you are a fan of the Steakth heads! (He isn’t) What is the labor cost on a 10 hour head job? Are there heads that come setup better OOTB?

 

[1967coronet440]

A lot of people like the eddy rpm and e street heads. I think the e street has a 75cc chamber so it gives you a little bump in compression. I think you’ll find the consensus is that every head needs to go to a machine shop before bolting onto an engine. Although I know of 2 cases where trickflow heads were bolted on straight OOTB without issue, I wouldn’t do it on my engine though.

 

[dvw]

First off what is your budget? Must haves, look for used Holley street Dominator or Performer RPM intake, Eddy or Holley, deeper pan,valve covers of your choice. Best heads you can afford. I'd chose Eddy RPM's, Trick Flow 240. Eddy's have been around for awhile so they are easier to find used. Now to the cam. Hydraulics are easiest though a solid such as the prehistoric .557 Mopar performance cam works well. A bigger you go with the cam, the better push rods, rockers you will need. I would put all of these parts on a ball honed stock short block before spending big money on good rods, pistons, stroker. More bang for the buck. Again depends on budget. 2 mild builds I've done. Eddy heads, RPM intake, Mopar .484 hyd, stock rockers and pushrods, 600 Eddy carb, headers, stock low compression 440 short block (8-1 aprox). Stock 65 Belvedere, stock converter, 3.91 gear. 12.90's@108 on 255/60 street tires. #2 another stock 65 Belvedere. TRW piston +.030" 440 short block, stock rods, (good bolts) and crank (10.0-1), Eddy heads, 557 Mopar solid, aftermarket push rods and rockers, old Offy low rise 2x4 with 2 Eddy 600, headers, 4.10, 9x28 slick, good converter. It 's been 11.30's@117
Doug

 

[Challenger340]

Interesting stuff. I noticed how you are a fan of the Steakth heads! (He isn’t) What is the labor cost on a 10 hour head job? Are there heads that come setup better OOTB?

MY BAD !
I re-read the OP's first post.... he wants 500hp at the WHEELS !

I ain't a "fan" of the Stealth's, or any Head for that matter, past fitting Flow requirements/budgets as they present.
My bad giving a link to 500 hp flywheel, and NO.... way too much work "up there" past 600hp flywheel with a Stealth, forget it.

 

[Challenger340]

Because the "Car" itself, and the goodies/parts applied therein are so critical to a good combination, and ultimately how fast you go ?
Instead of targeting "500 hp at the wheels".... and ultimately destroying parts/pieces snapping junk not conduscive in the car ?
maybe,
decide how fast you wanna go and get suggestions for the entire combo ?

No offense intended to the OP, just say'in....
I know you are not racing per se...
but even 550-600hp in front of a stock 833 ... stock 8 3/4..... stock fuel system delivery/cooling/no connectors/leaf control and on and on

I like Doug's (dvw) idea giving combo "examples".

We've experienced what I call customer "disaster's" in the past, where we just gave 'em what they wanted hp/trq wise in an Engine, then witnessed the sustained and ongoing experiments in their continuously locating the next weak link in the 4 spd stick Car..... the carnage is just awful to watch !
Even had one guy 2 months ago, a real hardcore stick street driver, discover WHY they make steel scatter shield bellhousings instead of his Aluminum ?
After 4 years whooping on the stick behind a mere 540hp/550 Trq 451 B Engine, then resulted in a nice pass side fender exit wounde in his car !
Lucky he didn't lose his toesies !

If anybody guesses I am NOT a "fan" of 833 4 stick combo's behind REAL Engines you would be right ?.... they are just plain SLOWER and break parts compared to a well matched Auto/Converter setup on the street.

 

[1967coronet440]

Regarding the 8 3/4 go to the last page and see what happens when you have a 8 3/4 with 500” motor

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/8-3-4-or-dana.140433/page-4#post-910809060

 

[wsutard]

Great info everyone. I am re-aligning my objectives for this build. The more I research the more I am thinking that my original objectives were not on par for my skill nor my lack of want to burn cash. Example, everywhere you turn there are "budget" builds for 440s that are about $6000-$7000. I can't say that I'm opposed to spending that much money, but that in no way is what I would term "budget". I would love to be well under that when done, we will see. Looks like its forum shopping for me.

So, for the realignment of objectives: As 5.7 Hemi put it so eloquently:

Build it for torque and hp will follow.

What say you to 500+TQ as a new, realistic objective? I'm sure my butt dyno would enjoy that ride.

Here is what I know so far:
1. Original 76 block, .030 over, normal machining.
2. 10.5 CR (I have always been told that CR makes the power. Seems like shooting for 10.5 is good because it lets me run pump gas while pulling as much out of the engine as I can. Unless someone comes along and tells me that 440s detonate to easily up there and like to live in the 9.5 range.)
3. XE275HL (seems like the best bet for TQ)
4. Forged Crank out of a 69. (I got it as part of the block deal I did)
5. Eddy Performer RPM. Is there a better dual plane option for the street?
6. A833 4 Speed (not changing this)
7. 8 3/4 rear end with 4.10 (4.10 is from the internet calculators)
7. Fitech EFI (I HATE carbs. However, I'm 50% on this right now. Seems like an area I can save some cash on and still get good performance.)

Areas to save money on:
1. Stock rockers/push rods? How far can I take the stock rockers/push rods? Yes they are ugly but they are cheap and light. I was watching the most recent Roadkill Extra where Steve Dulcich was showing how to put the rockers on a 360. He believed that the stockers would handle 6k and outperform a heavier roller rocker. Not sure how this applies to the 440 yet but they are the same design.

2. OOTB heads? Looks like head-work will tack on about $800 to the cost of heads. Now that I am being more realistic, and shooting for a fun TQ number, I'm thinking I can OOTB a set of heads. Which gives me some room to grow later on if I decided I want more power. E Street seem to be the go to for "budget" builds. Sure would be nice to find a set of RPM or 240s on the forums.

3. Rods, can I get away with balanced LY or should I really go for some H BEAM whatevers?

Something I don't know yet:

Pistons: I haven't dug into the correct piston setup yet that matches the head/CR combo I'm looking for. I'm sure it will be something like an Icon or KB, the cheaper of the two or whatever I can get off the forums.

As for my 8 3/4, warnings received. I'm sure I will reflect back upon this thread when I'm sitting there with a grenaded rear end thinking "huh, the internet was right for once".

 

[1967coronet440]

The heads is where you’re going to make your power, see if this guy still has the trickflows for sale

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/trickflow-240-chrysler-440-aluminim-heads.137996/

 

[wsutard]

The heads is where you’re going to make your power, see if this guy still has the trickflows for sale

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/trickflow-240-chrysler-440-aluminim-heads.137996/

They also seem like its where you spend your money. $1000 for a set of E Street vs $2000 for a set of 240's or RPMs. Based on my readings, E Streets will put out 500TQ OOTB...or am I wrong?

Thanks for the link, PMed him.