My 440 Build Thead (clueless builder)

[1967coronet440]

They also seem like its where you spend your money. $1000 for a set of E Street vs $2000 for a set of 240's or RPMs. Based on my readings, E Streets will put out 500TQ OOTB...or am I wrong?

Thanks for the link, PMed him.

E street are a good head, but they don’t flow nearly as good as the TF 240’s, e Street are cheaper and you can get them with the 75cc chamber to bump up the CR A bit. Here’s a flow chart for each head

 

[dvw]

You'll make more power with a rering and new bearings to the cast crank motor and nice heads, rockers, pushrods, timing chain then you will with a fresh short block with subpar heads and stock rocker gear.
Doug

 

[wsutard]

You'll make more power with a rering and new bearings to the cast crank motor and nice heads, rockers, pushrods, timing chain then you will with a fresh short block with subpar heads and stock rocker gear.
Doug

Give me your thoughts on this setup, anywhere close to 500tq?

E Street 84cc complete Heads, checked over by machine shop: http://www.manciniracing.com/e440cyheforb1.html
KB Hyper Pistons, 10CR with 84cc heads: http://www.manciniracing.com/44088cc95to1.html
Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake: http://www.manciniracing.com/440perid55rp.html
Comp Cams XE275HL w/hydraulic lifters: http://www.manciniracing.com/bigblxtenhih1.html
Balanced LY Rods
Balanced Forged Crank
Stock Rockers and push rods
Block bored .030, decked to fit 10CR.

What difference should I expect to see if I switch out to Performer heads?

 

[1967coronet440]

They flow about the same, that seems like a decent set up though. Me personally I would go with the 75cc chamber over the 84 to bump up the CR. And I would buy the heads bare and get your springs with your cam so they match. Also go with an aftermarket rocker, you don’t want to be cheap there IMO. You can sell some parts off these motors to contribute to your build.

 

[Challenger340]

Here's a combo that made 475hp and 535 Ft/Lbs trq, all done by 5,000 rpm. It's a "leave in Drive" with an auto deal.

Forged Crank
Stock LY Rods W/ARP Bolts
L2355F Forged Pistons
Stealths, ootb but pre-check, and milled to get the CR. (E-Streets just fine and save on milling)
XE284H
Stock Pushrods & Rockers
Performer rpm Intake Manifold W/850Carb.

During Machining:
* make sure zero decked Block and Head Milling correct to attain a true 10.4:1 static C.R.(or use the E-Streets)
* The L2355's are a bit of a biatch to fit because they are so gawdam BIG with the skirt coating ? You could substitute something else as long as it can meet the 10.4:1 for the 244* @ .050 XE284
* either way.... USE a T/Plate when Honing !
* .0030" Main Clrc. and .0025" Rod Bearing Clrc

 

[wsutard]

Here's a combo that made 475hp and 535 Ft/Lbs trq, all done by 5,000 rpm. It's a "leave in Drive" with an auto deal.

Forged Crank
Stock LY Rods W/ARP Bolts
L2355F Forged Pistons
Stealths, ootb but pre-check, and milled to get the CR. (E-Streets just fine and save on milling)
XE284H
Stock Pushrods & Rockers
Performer rpm Intake Manifold W/850Carb.

During Machining:
* make sure zero decked Block and Head Milling correct to attain a true 10.4:1 static C.R.(or use the E-Streets)
* The L2355's are a bit of a biatch to fit because they are so gawdam BIG with the skirt coating ? You could substitute something else as long as it can meet the 10.4:1 for the 244* @ .050 XE284
* either way.... USE a T/Plate when Honing !
* .0030" Main Clrc. and .0025" Rod Bearing Clrc

Our build sheets are very close to the Hot Rod "440 Budget Build" that made 537 HP / 538 TQ. Only difference with yours is Hot Rod used Performer RPM Heads vs Stealth/E-Street and a Victor Single Plane. http://www.hotrod.com/articles/how-you-can-build-a-stout-537hp-street-440/

In fact this is where I got the idea to stick with the LY and stock Rocker setup.

I bet there is some dyno differences built into your numbers vs Hot Rods as well.

How would you you compare the L2355 Pistons to the Keith Blacks? At that level are pistons basically all the same?

The reason I lowered my CR goals was for the XE 275 and reliability. How is the 440 with 10.5 compression? I am coming from a 340 which takes the 10.5 rather well. I dont mind build the compression to 10.4 for the XE284.

 

[wsutard]

Another question, my crank is milled .010 from the factory. Am I going to have issues with bearings if I have the shop take it down another .010 for a total of .020?

 

[1967coronet440]

I don’t think so, you’d just have to specify when you purchase bearings that you need them for .020 under crank

 

[wsutard]

Here's a combo that made 475hp and 535 Ft/Lbs trq, all done by 5,000 rpm. It's a "leave in Drive" with an auto deal.

Forged Crank
Stock LY Rods W/ARP Bolts
L2355F Forged Pistons
Stealths, ootb but pre-check, and milled to get the CR. (E-Streets just fine and save on milling)
XE284H
Stock Pushrods & Rockers
Performer rpm Intake Manifold W/850Carb.

During Machining:
* make sure zero decked Block and Head Milling correct to attain a true 10.4:1 static C.R.(or use the E-Streets)
* The L2355's are a bit of a biatch to fit because they are so gawdam BIG with the skirt coating ? You could substitute something else as long as it can meet the 10.4:1 for the 244* @ .050 XE284
* either way.... USE a T/Plate when Honing !
* .0030" Main Clrc. and .0025" Rod Bearing Clrc

deleting because dumb.

 

[wsutard]

They flow about the same, that seems like a decent set up though. Me personally I would go with the 75cc chamber over the 84 to bump up the CR. And I would buy the heads bare and get your springs with your cam so they match. Also go with an aftermarket rocker, you don’t want to be cheap there IMO. You can sell some parts off these motors to contribute to your build.

Seems like KB makes two of the same piston for a 440 .030 over. A flat top and Step head.

or

 

[wsutard]

Can anyone comment on these heads that are for sale? Anything specific I should ask?

Eddy Performer $1500
Here are he comments by the poster.

“Just pulled off my 440 they were the 84cc performer RPM heads. Bought new in spring had some port work done and gained 30 CFM on low end also valves were done properly, added 10 degree locks and retainers and heads were milled .030" to 77 cc for better quench with my 440 stock intake still fits. Heads are in perfect shape and only had about 30 Passes on them. I sold my car so don't need them. Have over $2000 in heads and have flow sheets with heads. “

Here are some pics

 

[1967coronet440]

I only have one thing to say to people who want to ban guns, or gun control. Come and take it

 

[wsutard]

I only have one thing to say to people who want to ban guns, or gun control. Come and take it

So random.

 

[1967coronet440]

So random.
View attachment 536989

LMAO THAY WAS SUPPOSED TO GO ON A DIFFERENT THREAD, but I stand behind what I said lol

 

[Challenger340]

E street are a good head, but they don’t flow nearly as good as the TF 240’s, e Street are cheaper and you can get them with the 75cc chamber to bump up the CR A bit. Here’s a flow chart for each head

View attachment 536515 View attachment 536516

No wars wanted, just a statement of opinion having Flowed them all.... TF240/Sidewinders/E-Street & RPM/ Stealth
But having owned a Flowbench for over 35 years, the first one homebuilt using an 8/71 Blower on VFD, with the most recent one now being a SuperFlow SF750 Bench with all the Bells & Whistles, which we also get to Dyno the Engines correlating our Airflow data from porting.....
I would then strongly agree with Hughes Engines, Rehr Morrison, BRODIX, AFR, etc., etc., and on and on....
That Flow numbers by themselves are a very poor way to judge a head ! with equally important power producing features like port velocity, and wet flow characteristics, that very simply.... can not be seen in FLOW numbers by themselves as the primary criterion for a given "application".

Just saying....
for the same reason one would probably NOT select an OOTB E-Street for a targeted 800hp Roller Cam RACE build ?
IMO,
IMO the TF240 is a waste of money for a non stroker 440 build using a .500" F.T. Hydraulic Cam targeting 500 hp and low 530'ish Trq

 

[Challenger340]

Our build sheets are very close to the Hot Rod "440 Budget Build" that made 537 HP / 538 TQ. Only difference with yours is Hot Rod used Performer RPM Heads vs Stealth/E-Street and a Victor Single Plane. http://www.hotrod.com/articles/how-you-can-build-a-stout-537hp-street-440/

In fact this is where I got the idea to stick with the LY and stock Rocker setup.

I bet there is some dyno differences built into your numbers vs Hot Rods as well.

How would you you compare the L2355 Pistons to the Keith Blacks? At that level are pistons basically all the same?

The reason I lowered my CR goals was for the XE 275 and reliability. How is the 440 with 10.5 compression? I am coming from a 340 which takes the 10.5 rather well. I dont mind build the compression to 10.4 for the XE284.

If I had my 'druthers... I wouldn't use either the L2355 or the KB's ?
As mentioned, the 2355's although cost effective, can be a biatch to fit with the BIG sizing and skirt coating, and they are REALLY heavy at ~1124 grams for balancing,
and,
the KB's although decently light even with the 1.094" Pins, they still require close attention to filing top ring end gap sizing that can result in blowby if A/F ratios/thermal stabilization(adequate warm up) is not maintained.

For these type street/low under 6K rpm 440 builds ? I have used, and found more than adequiate the ICON's ?
The IC9953 work well.
They seem to be built nicely, 4032 Alloy low expansion cam & barrel design, quiet running with good thermal stability, cheaper 5/64" Ring Pack, nice and light on the LY rods at 880 grams W/1.094" Pins, easy balancing on both planes, and probably just plain more forgiving.

As far as the power differences from our DYNO numbers vs Hot Rods in similar builds ?
When I say the Stealth's used were "OOTB" ? I mean we did NOTHING other than CC mill correct/check guides and V/Spring pressures.
We could easily have exceeded 500hp by very simply re-doing the Stealth Valve Seats / 75* throats / back-cutting.
just say'in....
magazine article builds are designed primarily to SELL parts, and it's NOT what they DO tell you ? It's what they do NOT ! IMO, at least some Head/Valve Angle cleanup was attained for the article.

STATIC Compression Ratio means absolutely NOTHING to an Engines running characteristic by ITSELF !
Play with the Cam events or Intake Valve ABDC closing point, which modify static CR into Dynamic or "running" Cylinder pressure and shoot for 145 psi to 155 psi max at sea level(dunno your elevation). That will allow you to still throw a decent timing curve at it for the street safely.

 

[Challenger340]

Can anyone comment on these heads that are for sale? Anything specific I should ask?

Eddy Performer $1500
Here are he comments by the poster.

“Just pulled off my 440 they were the 84cc performer RPM heads. Bought new in spring had some port work done and gained 30 CFM on low end also valves were done properly, added 10 degree locks and retainers and heads were milled .030" to 77 cc for better quench with my 440 stock intake still fits. Heads are in perfect shape and only had about 30 Passes on them. I sold my car so don't need them. Have over $2000 in heads and have flow sheets with heads. “

Here are some pics
View attachment 536985 View attachment 536986 View attachment 536987 View attachment 536988

In this case a Flow Sheet with Bench used may offer some insights vs ootb ?
Look pretty darn filthy for "new" last spring ?

 

[Challenger340]

Another question, my crank is milled .010 from the factory. Am I going to have issues with bearings if I have the shop take it down another .010 for a total of .020?

.020" under you are into "P" Bearing eccentricity's, nothing else available, and probably for the best anyways being stock LY Rods W/ARP Bolts.
But if you have to grind to .020" under ?
tell them to hit "lowside" or "minimum" (small) Sizing spec.
That way you can keep the Rod Sizing tight(better Brg Crush) on the LY's, attain adequate VERTICAL bearing Clearance, and NOT see the EXCESSIVE oil clearance over closer to the parting Lines "P" bearings are famous for !!
I mean P's are designed to have greater change in thickness(thinner) anyways over closer to the parting lines for stock fastener/stock Rod "pinch" at rpm.... but if you have to open up the Rod Big Ends to High spec to get the Vertical Bearing clearance where you want it.... because the Crank is too BIG.... "P" eccentricities are famous for going to .005" oil clearance over @45* from Vertical .0025" when the Rod Bores don't crush them enough.
THAT.... just wears the center of the Bearing prematurely in a hot-rod app.... with lower than normal Oil Pressure.
IMO,
When using P Eccentricity Bearings in a hot rod app ? Keep the Rod Big End sizing tight.... put the desired vertical oil clearance ground into the Crank during the regrind(small/minimum/lowside sizing).
Obviously this is done by making the Crank "small/minumum/lowside" spec FIRST during the regrind.... then size the Rods where you want after, because they can be done/redone/tightened up or opened to set clearance anytime.

 

[wsutard]

OK guys and gals, now that I received my bare heads I have put together my list of crap I need. Give me your thoughts on this stuff. Any and all suggestions are welcomed.

I still haven't decided on Hydraulic vs Solid cam. I think I am going to stick with 1.5 rockers over 1.6 although, they would cost the same.

Vehicle Specs:

Vehicle 69 Coronet
Street Use, might drag it once just to do it.
Target Compression Ratio 10-10.5:1
Target HP and TQ 500+
Transmission 4 Speed
Rear End 8 3/4 with 4:10 (might lower this for better highway)
Goal Driving Characteristics:

Idle: In-between smooth and choppy. Should sound mean and make a presence but not shake my family to death.
Driving: quick throttle response with the power coming in early. Car rarely gets over 60mph due to the gearing.
Highway: Confidence that I can cruise at 3500 without issue. Until I decide to change from 4:10 to something lower.
​

Engine Build:

Heads: Edelbrock Performer RPM 84cc 60919. Already purchased and in hand. Bare heads.
Head Work. Work with machine shop on needs. $500
Rockers: 1.5 Mancini Racing Aluminum Roller Rockers MRE57001-15 $450
Intake Valves: Edelbrock Stainless Steel Valves, 2.140 9641 $139
Exhaust Valves: Edelbrock Stainless Steel Valves, 1.810 9643 $127
Springs (Hydraulic Cam): Comp Cams 924-16 $112
Springs (Solid Cam): Hughes Dual Valve Spring HUG 1128 $159
Cam (Hydraulic): Comp XE285HL & Lifters CL 21-228-4 $226
Cam (Solid FT): ??? Hughes Solid Cam TBD $189
Lifters (Hydraulic): See Cam (Hydraulic). Come in the kit.
Lifters (Solid): Hughes Solid Oil Thru HUG 5012 $140
Push Rods: Smith Bros - Order to fit? $160
Timing Chain: Hughes Chain Set, 1 or 3 bolt HUG 6428 $80
Crank: Forged. Machine work $265
Connecting Rods: Eagle H-Beam Connecting Rods Eagle 6760C3D $490
Connecting Rods: Scat H-Beam 2-440-6760-2374-1094 $510
Connecting Rods: Stock LY - Checked and Balanced ?
Pistons: Keith Black, TBD, 10 or 10.5:1 KB236 $387
Pistons: Icon Flat Top IC9953 $463
Harmonic Balancer: Pro Race Products Pro Street 24279 $93
EFI: FiTech Mean Street EFI 800hp 30008 $1,100
Fuel System: If EFI, FiTech Fuel Command Center 40003 $395
Carb: TBD $500
Intake: Edelbrock Performer RPM 7193 $265
Distributor if EFI: MSD Pro Billet
Distributor if Carb: Firecore RTR 1007B $246​

 

[wsutard]

I am going to speak with the machine shop about the cost to check and balance my LY rods. I might stick with those instead of going with H-Beams. We will see.

Carb vs EFI. I really want to go with EFI. If I can save money on the rods I might put it toward a FiTech EFI system.

For the solid vs hydraulic cam, I havent found any negative of a solid cam yet. Supposedly they might be noisier with ticking and I might have to readjust the lash but that is ok.