Newb from the midwest needs sound advice

[Trey]

Gents/Ladies,

Hello from St. Louis, Trey here. I have a long story, not the one I thought I'd be sharing, so I will cut to the chase. I flew to Cali and picked up a '65 Belvedere (will post pics when resolved, I promise), drove home on a four day trip. Had some engine issues and when investigating found out the advertised, "... .040 10-2-1 Comp, Runs great on pump gas. Mopar 400 stroked to 451..." is a veteran 383 with scar tissue. A conversation with the seller didn't get me much traction, as he balked when I told him a stroker will run $6-8K, but then asked me what I wanted- confusing I know. My hopes were to tell of epic adventures of travel, in the best car I've ever owned.
Sorry to lay this one out there, just need sound advice. I fear any number I throw out will be rejected, since he talked in circles, and that I bought "as is". He has deep, deep pockets and mine are depleted buying what I thought was a "..runs perfect 100%". Just seems so fraudulent.
How would one handle this?

 

[mmissile]

Take ad, compare to reality....contact lawyer.

 

[moparnation74]

It was bought "as is".....Sounds like there was a buyer/sellers agreement in place....If so thats a tough one and requires a lawyer...

 

[Dennis H]

Sorry to hear this. Caveat Emptor.

 

[Trey]

Thanks guys. Hard pill to swallow, especially considering the back-story. I think he may have been duped, but now it's a trickle down issue that I have to pay for. I'll hold out hope he helps in some way financially.

 

[Kern Dog]

So.....
You bought a car that was described to have a B series 400 block fitted with a 440 crank to get 451 inches...Did you look at any receipts or see the casting date on the block? The 383 blocks were last cast in the early Spring of 1971, the 400 blocks started in Summer 1971. There was NO overlap in production, no 383s were built after the 400 went into production.
Verbal contracts can be enforced but unless the seller admits lying, it is a matter of his word against yours unless you have something in writing or recorded.
Are you trying to get him to refund some of the money to pay for an engine HE claimed was in the car? Sorry man, GOOD luck on that one...If the guy lied about the engine, I wouldn't bank on him coming through on anything.
The seller wasn't a guy named Miguel in the Bay Area, was it ?

 

[Trey]

So..... You bought a car that was described to have a B series 400 block fitted with a 440 crank to get 451 inches...Did you look at any receipts or see the casting date on the block? The 383 blocks were last cast in the early Spring of 1971, the 400 blocks started in Summer 1971. There was NO overlap in production, no 383s were built after the 400 went into production. Verbal contracts can be enforced but unless the seller admits lying, it is a matter of his word against yours unless you have something in writing or recorded. Are you trying to get him to refund some of the money to pay for an engine HE claimed was in the car? Sorry man, GOOD luck on that one...If the guy lied about the engine, I wouldn't bank on him coming through on anything. The seller wasn't a guy named Miguel in the Bay Area, was it ?

 

[Trey]

Kerndog,
It was listed the way I quoted (as being a stroker 400) on a couple of sites and in the printed sales information he gave me, besides verbally saying it while I was there.
The block has a date code of 1969 and casting proves it's a 383
He states that the engine information was given to him by a Mopar "expert". I suspect he is being honest, as my read on him was that he was genuine, but that he doesn't want to take responsibility for advertising this way.
Thanks guys!

 

[Car Nut]

aboard!

 

[moparcrazy]

yes very touchy, but was his intent to mislead you? if he was told it was a 400 then he honestly thought it was ? who knows? also did you the buyer, do your do diligence to verify it was what he said, Talk to a lawyer I'm not one Lol, maybe he (seller)can help you if you two can come to some type of understanding, or a life lesson that really SUCKS !!

 

[moparedtn]

3.

yes very touchy, but was his intent to mislead you? if he was told it was a 400 then he honestly thought it was ? who knows? also did you the buyer, do your do diligence to verify it was what he said, Talk to a lawyer I'm not one Lol, maybe he (seller)can help you if you two can come to some type of understanding, or a life lesson that really SUCKS !!

^^This. Intent is everything and since nobody can prove intent, well....
Buying ANY used car is an "as-is" affair. Buyer beware, do your due diligence, etc.

I hung out on the old eBay Motors discussion board for several years and learned a lot about such matters, especially from the dealers/sellers who also hung out there.
The common threme, time after time, were hundreds of cases of "buyers' remorse" just like what the OP is describing here:
1. Somebody decides they want to pick up the ride of their lives, gets their heads all full of rosy notions that 50+ year old cars drive and run really nicely and without issue like modern ones, and plunk down way too much money for something that looks really great in an ebay ad, usually without either checking the car out in person first or hiring a mechanic/inspection service to check it out on their behalf.
2. They might actually sometimes actually contact the seller (you'd be amazed how many people drop tens of thousands of dollars, sight-unseen, on rides and don't even bother to call the seller!), who is going to naturally paint quite the rosy picture of the car. Buyer takes that story as gospel because well, you know, they want to believe.....
3. The big day comes and the money changes hands and the buyer takes possession and reality sets in. All the warts and niggles of the actual, real-life car present themselves and the buyer feels duped, so they start hollering "fraud!" as the reality of their paying way too much for a car they didn't properly research sets in.
They expect the seller to own up to some real or imagined wrongdoing and to give them some money back. Yeah, right.

Again... behind all the fancy online ads and beautifully written descriptions, beyond the fantasy that there's tons of B-J show quality cars out there for eBay prices and beyond whatever fluffed up promises the seller offers....
What you're left with is the purchase of a used car, usually between two private parties.
The common sense rules apply - do your due diligence, have the car professionally inspected if you can't do it yourself BEFORE you place a bid or make an offer.
Don't get into bidding wars and pay too much.
Finally, accept and understand that ALL such deals carry the understood "as-is" descriptor.
Don't buy a pig in a poke and once the deal is done, don't get all "buyers' remorse" and drive the seller crazy. Honest, deceitful, whatever, money changed hands, deal is over.
As the sellers on EBMDB liked to say "enjoy your new car!"

 

[Allwayslooking]

Hey Trey, sry to hear of your dilemma. All used car titles say as is unless you have something in writing for a warranty or you will have to prove that he intentionally tried to deceive you, it’s a buyer beware situation. If the seller doesn’t admit to a verbal warranty it’s tough to prove. My suggestion to you would be get what you can from him $$$ wise, and take it as a lesson learned. I don’t think you’ll get any thing from the courts but an attorney bill, which will put you further in the hole for the car. I’m no lawyer but I’ve been on both ends of car sales and the courts protect the seller from buyers remorse. Good luck hope it works out for you.

 

[PP1RT]

Thats the cost of your education. If you didn't catch it before the sale thats pretty much on you. 383 and 400 have a stamp on the pad below the distributor. You should have checked at least that much. If you are not confident bring someone along who knows their ****. It will be cheaper to buy someone lunch and have them look things over with or for you. They are less likely to be wearing rose colored glasses....

Welcome aboard!

 

[Yatzee]

You really have only two choices, go the lawyer route which is a roll of the dice or try to make the best of a bad situation. Both will cost you. What ever route you go do not let your emotions screw it up. Calm and cool will always prevail in such a situation and by analysing your options you will come to a resolution. Perhaps your cheapest route would be another engine possibly constructed from the parts you already have or you could negotiate a settlement based on both of you being duped. I know anytime lawyers are involved the cost can be astounding and even if you secure judgement you may be out the cost of a fabulous engine that you'd wish you built in the first place.

 

[PurpleBeeper]

Yeah, that sucks Trey. I suggest you see what you can get out of the seller & just move on....damn that sucks....but I think you should just build another motor. Sorry dude. At least when you're done you will KNOW what you have for sure.

 

[Trey]

Quick thoughts on a couple comments above- the Ebay thing doesn't apply hear. I did make a mistake, trusting the seller on that part of the description. But, it's a contextual situation- too much to bore everyone with- since other things came into the negotiations. Bottom line, it is fraud is I sell something other than the PRINTED description...you pay for an advertised Subzero then find out it's a Maytag.

I am taking my lumps, and anything the seller may provide, and moving on. I don't stay long in negative energy, it's bad for the soul.

What I can hope is that this 1969 383 engine is due for a refresh and a new engine bay- once the new engine is built and I, or someone else can verify it's good.

Great tech information hidden inside this site, appreciate what I have found so far and members time in sharing. Thanks!

 

[Budnicks]

Sorry to hear you got screwed over by a unscrupulous seller

anyway welcome to FBBO from NorCal Sierrias
not all of US here in Calif. are like that, don't hold it against US

you could build a 426ci+ out of the 383, bore it, hone it etc.
have a 3.75" 440 426 413 crank mains turned down to B-Engine specs
counterweights turned down to 7.125" etc.,
order some bearing, rods {or have yours resized}, piston & rings gaskets
But there are kits available too, a couple grand in parts
& a couple grand maybe more in Machine & assembly...
If you can't do any of it yourself...

http://store.440source.com look under stroker kits & 383
&
http://www.manciniracing.com look under stroker kits & 383 also
or many others are good resources

 

[Trey]

Thanks Budnicks, that's great information, you Cali guys are alright by me.

I was so stoked to think about having a stroker, that I am fixated. I'm searching for a 400 block now, looking into a 470 build. Getting with the local mopar peeps and think I nailed down a machine shop. All that could change if I find something interesting already built up. I took a scope to just one cylinder and stopped there when finding some scar tissue. If salvageable I'm sure someone will be happy to make a numbers matching project; if not- coffee table.

 

[oldbee]

You really have only two choices, go the lawyer route which is a roll of the dice or try to make the best of a bad situation. Both will cost you. What ever route you go do not let your emotions screw it up. Calm and cool will always prevail in such a situation and by analysing your options you will come to a resolution. Perhaps your cheapest route would be another engine possibly constructed from the parts you already have or you could negotiate a settlement based on both of you being duped. I know anytime lawyers are involved the cost can be astounding and even if you secure judgement you may be out the cost of a fabulous engine that you'd wish you built in the first place.

+1

 

[khryslerkid]

So how's the car itself? Look at the positive side of things. Got any pics?