NO BULL; how fast was a B-body 383 HP car compared to a GTO or a Chevelle SS 396 car?

[oldbee]

If these cars were quick from the factory we would not have modified them to make them quicker. "QUICK" not FAST. On the street, from the green light, the race could have been over seconds after the light turned green, because someone backed down already or you run till someone pussed out (or had more sense). My limit was... the next red light, but my longest run in the city was over 1/2 mile (2,883') running against another Charger. Me having short legs, I had to come out in first gear quick and hard, scary as 5hit.

1970 Dodge Charger se, 383 magnum, DC electronic ignition, Winters automatic trans. built for quick, 2 carters 500cfm. competition Afb 4 bbl., L60-15 rear tires, 3.91 gears, yes and yellow traction bars on SS springs. This was the late '70's. Things on the street are very much different now. On the long runs 1/2 mile and more as I say, "My legs were to short." So in my teenage/no money life, "Quick" got er done. "ON GREEN, GO". Oh yes...a lot falls on the driver.

Oh c’mon, everyone wanted to go a “little” quicker than what they had!! Otherwise Summit and others would still be in 5,000sq.ft. buildings!

 

[WileE]

Ok...in my youth, I LIVED street racing. As stated before, the DRIVER is probably the most important factor. I beat small-block Corvettes with a mildly worked 318 Satellite. The cars had more power than mine, but the ones I beat the drivers were dorks. To the question here, I'll say with COMPARABLE SETUPS, the Runner and Chevrolet would be close, but not with the 375 horse 396. And both would beat G TO' s easily.

 

[biomedtechguy]

IMO: Traction Traction Traction the most critical factor in these scenarios. Driver skill part of that, even more important with a 4 speed.
I read the book about the Royal Bobcat cars and the mods they did on Pontiacs back then. Very interesting what worked, and where times could be cut. They found the fancy Hurst wheels because of their heavier weight actually cost them .2-.3 in the 1320.
Pontiacs don't respond to a higher numeric ring and pinion gear like a 383 or 340 because the Pontiac is a torque monster to begin with, at lower RPMs at least, and without slicks that just added wheelspin.
I am amazed at how much faster my 70 V-Code Roadrunner is vs my 71 Charger R/T back in 78/79.
I understand why, but it goes beyond just the 6 vs 4bbl.
My experience over 40 years of street runs and occasional track trips is traction is the key. I am amazed at how well the FAST guys hook on those skinny tires! I cut 6/10ths off my time by switching to drag radials and power shifting, with room for improvement. My wife's built 421 Tri-power in the (now broken) open stock rear axle was horrible at the no prep track, and I expect to cut 1 full second or more off the GTO's 1/4 mile time with the new rear axle-going from a 3.3 open axle to a 3.89 9" posi, drag radials already in place.

 

[Budnicks]

Edited 1/2/2018 8:32 pm, some clarifications etc.
They were all really mid 14 second to low 15 sec. cars
some could dip down into the high 13's on occasion,
depending on track & altitudes etc.
all run about 95-100mph in the qtr.
on crap bias ply tires
unless they had a next option up gear set or engine option
wider tires, traction bars, different/better carbs, headers, camshaft etc.
like many day 2 cars back in the day all did...

weight for weight they are pretty comparable

I know I've owned them all, I've had them all at the track too
in 100% stock & in day 2 or much great performance applications

Don't shot the messenger...LOL
I still love my Mopars, just much better when modified...

Mopars back in the day, in 100% stock
the biggest limitation/choke points were the cylinder heads/cfm flow
especially wedge head engines, not as bad with the 383,
but could have been better, the 340 not so bad either,
the BB's wedges where choked down seriously,
the larger 4.250 in bore made them flow better than the SBC's
but they were barely comparable to the SBC fuelie heads
{sorry but it's the Truth} http://www.hotrod.com/articles/cylinder-heads/
just with a slightly bigger intake 2.08" & exhaust valves 1.74",
the ports starting in 1968 taking off from the 1967 915 closed chamber,
when the 906 open chamber castings flowed only a bit better,
more lower octane/lower lead friendly too
but they weren't anything like the Max Wedge
or anything like the capability of Rectangular Port BBC Canted valve heads
or the Ram Air Pontiac or Ford Tunnel Port stuff off the shelf let alone a
Chrysler Hemi, the 440-6bbl out performed it on the street
those aren't the cars & engines we're talking about here...

A GTO 64-71 Chevelle SS 66-71 base gear 3.42:1 & 396-400 base engines
compared with a 383 4bbl 335hp base engine
RR/Super Bee base engine had a special camshaft
IIRC 0.465"gross lift/268* duration about 10% larger than the base engine
the Charger/Coronet/Satellite etc. had 383 4bbl 330hp
with a 383ci & 3.23:1, was a bit under geared, freeway friendly
they ran a slight bit better with the 3.55:1 gear in a 8 3/4 rear
ran like a raped ape with "day 2" 3.91:1 - 4.10:1 or 4.30:1
a bit better smaller Converter, the RR had a special 10.5" converter too,
stalled higher...
But all were about the same performing cars,
from right off the showroom floors, only just a minor differences,
a few 1/10's in either direction, most depended on driver & added options/weight...

It's all about weight per hp...

the Pontiac/GTO really woke up with headers & intake exhaust
the Chevy/Chevelle did pretty well right out of the box, free flowing heads,
any little mods, done correctly, it really liked & it helped & got faster
Much like the 383's did liked the free flowing 2-1/4" or bigger exhaust
& aluminum intake, a better carb, air cleaner, hot coil & ignition etc.

BBC Chevy heads flowed a little better, even the Oval Port heads

An engine it's just a big air pump, no matter the make,
what comes in, must be able to go back out freely...
Cylinder heads & actual ability to flow more cfm & expel it,
are a really big deal, in any performance application...

Can't forget the Buicks, them GS's weren't no slouches either
in fact IIRC the 70 Buick GS 455 {IIRC 13.15 ET}
was the quickest box stock off the showroom, torque monster...

Don't forget the Old's 442's, they weren't no slouches either...

Ronnie Sox did a few tests & drove a few Brand X cars...
Driver does make a big difference...
Line up the likes of racers like, big names back in the day
Sox, Landy, Glidden, Grumpy, Ronda, Thompson you'll see that...

here's a cool old video, not specific to what we are talking about
but pretty cool from 1966 about Hemi Satellite's vs GTO's, Chevelle, Fairlane


The A-body's Dart's & Barracuda's with the 383ci were quick little buggers
500#-700#'s lighter, you just couldn't hardly get any tire under them

 

[biomedtechguy]

Great perspective Budnicks! Cool video. Funny, it looks like Ronnie Sox was racing with Hurst (heavy) wheels installed, I assume due to sponsorship. As experienced as the Royal Bobcat team was, they discovered late in the game how those wheels were costing them .2-.3 in the 1320, probably would have made all the difference between a trophy or the trailer on many tracks back then.

 

[biomedtechguy]

My buddy had a 70 383 4 speed N96 Roadrunner in the late 70s/early 80s. I hooked him up with the seller.
He put a 3.91 in the 8.75, pinion snubber, purple stripe hydraulic cam (284°/.480 IIRC) aluminum intake and carb. Mid 13 seconds on wide street tires. 1st gear spun pretty good but got her moving, 2nd gear and she really started rolling! We did a lot of the NOLA street scene stuff back then.
His turn signal was worn from age/use. We could tell when he hit 2nd with that pistol grip-the turn signal arm would drop from the rather violent slam and his left light would come on!

 

[SublimeSixpack]

I did exactly that with my 69 383 4sp super bee-3.23 gears. A 396 Chevelle was several cars lengths behind me.
Two stock cars beat mine in those street racing in our small town days. One was a 390 Rambler Machine. The other was a 427 4sp Galaxie.

Was the Galaxie a 1964 model?

 

[shag766]

well i have had a lot of cars in the day from the mid 60's on up. mid sized town 2 main streets through downtown, 1-one way north the other 1-way south. friday and saturday night's were race nights light to light with a no gas car club at either end of the loop. north end was a & w, south end was a plaza. my first what you could call a fassst car was a 68 hemi runner 4spd, my first car bought new, and it was fast once you got to the top end of 2nd gear and everything quit spinning. i had my *** handed to me a few times and it was mostly by small blocks from light to light but when we got outa town once or twice a night to a marked 1/4 i would hand it back to them, once they caught up and it was over. as for a 383 it would run over a 396/325, most but not all 396/350 depending on the driver. 396/375 they couldn't run with unless the driver was an idiot, and they all can't be idiot's can they, lol. their biggest problem was no traction with the coil suspension. the 383 would jump him from the get-go while he went up in smoke, the idiot-lol, where the good driver would go by the 383 somewhere between the 1/2 to 3/4 mark and be gone from there. the first chevs to run with the hemi, out of town, were the stock 427 biscayne's. the stock chevelle 427 didn't have a chance with no traction. with a good driver the biscayne gave you close to a race but never beat, driver factor again. the heavier car didn't bounce around like a cork on top of water, as much. lol. the biggest problem with the chev was the traction on stock cars. once they started putting the traction tricks to them the race was on. a close ford comparison would of been the 390 fairlane's and they both had the same rated h/p and both with leafs. the 383 runners would beat them and by lengths and they were a bit heavier.
so in answer to the inquiry that is what i gleaned out of my misspent youth, lol. i'm not sticking up for chev or ford but h/p is h/p. obviously ford didn't have it and chev didn't know what to do with it. my 69 hemi coronet today is tricked and geared a bit for traction and i would really like to go back to that light to light time when i had the 68. lmao

 

[ws23jrt]

Was the Galaxie a 1964 model?

I believe it was. And my foggy memory tells me it was unaltered from factory at the time. It was five years old at the time it passed my new 69 bee in a street race.

 

[69roadrunner>>>]

Being a young guy back then, I can say it was 90% driver skill.I knew a kid with a rich dad that would get beat every week,so he would buy the type of car that beat him. He still got beat every weekend. Now I also knew an older fellow with a 69 roadrunner that I never saw lose a race, no matter what car he raced against. But he knew how to push that car, and he did it from the minute he bought it, until he went to Vietnam. Great driver, no fear,pushed the runner to the limits all the time. Guys were afraid of him on the street. Unfortunately he never returned from Vietnam.

Same story for my Dad with a early '69 Bee, but he made it back from Viet Nam... Thank God

When he got back, he found out his Ma had sold his car while he was off fighting...

 

[terzmo]

HP can be the same...distance and gearing made the difference with everything else being equal. In the 60's , street races were light to light...so 391/410 gears were great. A lot of small blocks, geared right, embarrassed a bunch of BB with crappy gears.

 

[terzmo]

I believe it was. And my foggy memory tells me it was unaltered from factory at the time. It was five years old at the time it passed my new 69 bee in a street race.

They made the galaxy in 64

 

[khryslerkid]

IMO: Traction Traction Traction the most critical factor in these scenarios. Driver skill part of that, even more important with a 4 speed.

This!

Most of the GMs that I encountered or drove, were weak on traction and that made them easy prey. Most of the B Bodys that I ran could hook pretty well without any mods. This is on the street, not a prepped track.

 

[PurpleBeeper]

All of these stories bring back memories. I street raced A LOT in the early 80's in a 383 4spd Roadrunner. I raced the car a lot, so that helped for sure. It had 3.55's, headers, very wide rear tires (air shocks) and a pinion snubber and I tuned the car up regularly. I beat most other cars except the older guys with more money... but since it was only "most" cars, I put in a 440 with a 750 vac. secondary Holley + a 125hp NOS power shot system and I don't think I lost a race after that, though I'm sure there were faster cars in my area I never got a chance to race. With the 383, I was about even with a SS 396 Chevelle (70?) and a 402 in a 73 Monte Carlo (not original motor). I typically "spanked" a 350 Chevelle and a late 60's/early 70's 4spd Formula Firebird (400 cid "something") would usually beat me.

I remember the rumored fastest cars were a 440 six pack Roadrunner, a 302 dual quad Maverick and a 73 340 Roadrunner with a 6-71 blower.

 

[Cranky]

In 70 I ran against a 70 Judge with a 400 and even with a mildly built 383 in my car, I knew he was faster. Thing is, I had traction and he didn't so I took him off the line big time but he was coming hard at the end. We probably ran a bit over 1/8 mile because of space limitations. He wanted to run again but told him what for....already beat ya once

 

[terzmo]

If I got the jump off the line with a 383, the 400 Pontiac couldn't catch me. The 400,stock,is a low redline motor with a lot of low end torque...

 

[flypaper]

My buddy had a 70 383 4 speed N96 Roadrunner in the late 70s/early 80s. I hooked him up with the seller.
He put a 3.91 in the 8.75, pinion snubber, purple stripe hydraulic cam (284°/.480 IIRC) aluminum intake and carb. Mid 13 seconds on wide street tires. !

that was a popular 383 combo back in the day
my buddy had the same set up on his 70 runner
except his runner didn't have n96
not many cars would keep up with him

 

[BeeKool]

Keep the Chebbys and Pontiacs. I'll take a Buick GS and show them my taillights.

 

[mopar 3 B]

I have never never had a stock B body Mopar. Also never kept track of title transactions. Did own 1 69 Nova twice did not want it a third time. Wish I had a building at the time to have stored them all in. Could have retired years ago. But what the heck needed the money to go racing.

 

[biomedtechguy]

their biggest problem was no traction with the coil suspension

I have a question and observation, and it goes to the traction issue, and leafs vs coil suspension.
Our 65 GTO has a (what I consider) "factory 4 link" that uses shocks, and a pair of coil springs in a separate location, and the GTO had air bags added inside the coil springs to adjust the rake (mainly to raise the back) by a previous owner.
Taking the air bags out of that equation, I don't see any weaknesses in what appears to me to be a 4 link-the epitome of drag racing rear suspension design. Leafs have all kinds of inherent design flaws in drag racing applications that we are aware of, and many, myself included, either enhance or change parts (CalTracks) or like I am inclined to do some day-change out the leafs for a 4 link, StreetLynx in my case is what I'm looking at.
So what am I missing in my opinion that the 65 A-body GM (and I don't know how many other GMs had this) actually has the best factory rear suspension setup for drag racing while the Mopars have leafs that belong on a hauling wagon?