Oiling System Issues

[Polara Pat]

Hey folks, we've been having some problems with our oiling system holding a prime if the car sits for more than 12 hours. We've gotten into the habit of doing a manual prime with the drill through the distributor hole if the car sits for any length of time but realistically...this is stupid. We have a problem and I'm hoping you fine folks can help to shed some light on what's happening here.

Here's our set-up. We have to run a rear sump pan to clear all of our straight axle steering links so we opted to use a 440 Source external pump and pick-up. An externally mounted filter was mounted as well for other clearance issues and we use an accumulator for cheap insurance. Our other thought with the accumulator was to maintain a prime in oil pressure while the car is in storage by using a manual ball valve. Ie: shut the valve while the car is running and hold pressure in the accumulator, then open the valve before you start the motor giving it a pre-charge of about 40#. The system works good if we could only remember to do it. The solution was to use a high heat/high pressure electric oil valve from Canton, wired through our ignition. The system worked amazing until it didn't. We are now on our second failed (very expensive) valve from Canton (it might actually be Kanton) and we still lack a good prime when the car sits. I know we're probably doing a great job at over complicating this system but it's what we have.

Any thoughts?

 

[Cranky]

Isn't the accumulator supposed to be at an angle and isn't the pressure relief valve in the oil pumps supposed to keep things from draining back?

 

[Polara Pat]

Isn't the accumulator supposed to be at an angle and isn't the pressure relief valve in the oil pumps supposed to keep things from draining back?

Being that it is a pressurized system I don't know that the accumulator needs to be mounted on an angle and I have yet to read anything that suggests otherwise. As far as the pressure relief valve in the pump preventing the oil from draining back...that is a possibility. It is a 440 Source unit which can occasionally verge on junk. We were advised to incorporate a downward loop into the pump feed to prevent this from happening as well, which we did. Maybe a bigger loop in the braided line would help in holding pressure between fire-ups but I feel like there is a bigger culprit.

 

[dvw]

A couple of items. #1, Depends on the type of accumulator. A piston type is most often horizontal, a floating ball type must be vertical. #2 , I had the problem on my previous car. The problem was worn pump rotors, they wouldn't pull the oil up to the pump. New rotors and the problem was solved. My current Indy Max pump primes in seconds w/o the accumulator turned on. #3, A loop in the line that holds oil in the feed line surely seems like it would work if you have the room, but I have never tried it.
#4 Why or what is failing in the valves, are the stuck with debris or electrically damaged?
Doug

 

[Polara Pat]

A couple of items. #1, Depends on the type of accumulator. A piston type is most often horizontal, a floating ball type must be vertical. #2 , I had the problem on my previous car. The problem was worn pump rotors, they wouldn't pull the oil up to the pump. New rotors and the problem was solved. My current Indy Max pump primes in seconds w/o the accumulator turned on. #3, A loop in the line that holds oil in the feed line surely seems like it would work if you have the room, but I have never tried it.
#4 Why or what is failing in the valves, are the stuck with debris or electrically damaged?


Doug

Lots of really good points Doug,

I believe the accusump is a piston style accumulator. The rotors are brand new but are being used in the 440 Source pump which is used (by us, for two years). I feel like the electric valve should work like a champ but is either failing from pressure , heat or debris. The motor is new with maybe 40 passes on it and probably four oil changes in case that info seems relevant.

 

[dvw]

Lots of really good points Doug,

I believe the accusump is a piston style accumulator. The rotors are brand new but are being used in the 440 Source pump which is used (by us, for two years). I feel like the electric valve should work like a champ but is either failing from pressure , heat or debris. The motor is new with maybe 40 passes on it and probably four oil changes in case that info seems relevant.

Man your way better on maintenance than me. I've got 65 passes on the oil. I would disassemble the valve. I'll bet it's got junk in it. I think you're correct about the accusump.
Doug

 

[Polara Pat]

Man your way better on maintenance than me. I've got 65 passes on the oil. I would disassemble the valve. I'll bet it's got junk in it. I think you're correct about the accusump.
Doug

Haha, yah, we're not normally this diligent with our oil changes but this mill is kinda special (read: expensive), so longevity is the order of the day. We did disassemble the first valve when it failed but it was clean. The fact that a second valve has failed is just plain weird and makes me think that it's just not suited for the application.

 

[Polara Pat]

Any other thoughts from the big brains in the house?

 

[67steve]

I have mildon oil pump and 2 #12 pickups and do not have a priming issue even with vr1 50w oil, I have let car sit for 2-3 months and not a priming issue over 6 months ill prime because I usually pull pan to remove water/alky from pan because oil floats on water.

I would dump that 440 source pump and get the good stuff. as for accumulator just put an normally closed solenoid on it (nos) wired to the coil/ignition so when engine is running ignition is on and accul. is full when you shut off ignition it close holding the pressure. bring rpms up to increase pressure in tank. when you go to re start the ignition turns on and opens valve and good to go.
steve

 

[bigblock]

I have a suggestion. Is your oil filter adapter plumbed correctly? Oil should go into the filter through the outer holes and out of the filter through the middle. Some filters have a built in check valve but some do not.

 

[Polara Pat]

I have mildon oil pump and 2 #12 pickups and do not have a priming issue even with vr1 50w oil, I have let car sit for 2-3 months and not a priming issue over 6 months ill prime because I usually pull pan to remove water/alky from pan because oil floats on water.

I would dump that 440 source pump and get the good stuff. as for accumulator just put an normally closed solenoid on it (nos) wired to the coil/ignition so when engine is running ignition is on and accul. is full when you shut off ignition it close holding the pressure. bring rpms up to increase pressure in tank. when you go to re start the ignition turns on and opens valve and good to go.
steve

You know, I've been questioning that pump since day one. It might be time to step up to something better. (not much of a stretch really)

 

[AMX364]

X2 Change the pump.
Why not mount accumulator between seats and use manual valve. I had my 3qt. hidden behind the front bumper on my Turbo Omni when I was using the car on a road course with race tires. The 1qt. unit must be mounted vertical and the 3qt. unit can be mounted anywhere. And yes, I have 1 of each and prefer the 3qt. Only main costs was on AN fittings and hose, higher then accumulator.

 

[Polara Pat]

X2 Change the pump.
Why not mount accumulator between seats and use manual valve. I had my 3qt. hidden behind the front bumper on my Turbo Omni when I was using the car on a road course with race tires. The 1qt. unit must be mounted vertical and the 3qt. unit can be mounted anywhere. And yes, I have 1 of each and prefer the 3qt. Only main costs was on AN fittings and hose, higher then accumulator.

The accumulator sits quite nicely under what is left of our inner fender and we did start this program with a manual ball valve but damned if any of us could remember to use it. It's been decided that we will be stepping up to a better pump. We haven't settled on which brand at this stage. Maybe Miloden.