Opinions wanted on 440 build

[moparbud66]

I've recently picked up an unfinished 1966 Satellite project car. Previous owner had started this 440 build and I have bought the remaining components to finish. This is what I have: '70 440, .060 over, 10.5 KB pistons, H beam rods, forged crank, (all balanced), hydraulic Comp cam .488/.491, MP 1.6 adjustable aluminum rockers, stock 906 heads with new valves and seats, melling HV oil pump, torker 440 intake, Holley (TRC) 780cfm carb, Mopar elec. ignition dist., headers (1 7/8, 2 1/2 collector) running through the 2" dual exhaust that was on the car. I'm on a budget and this is as far as I can go this year. I don't know what to expect and I know that some of these components may not be ideal for a street car but I'll be happy just to have it running and driving. I will be assembling it soon and hope to have it fired up sometime in August. It has a built 727 with a 10" convertor, I think he said it was 2000 stall. Let me know what you think and any recommendations you may have for the future.

 

[lewtot184]

iron heads, 10.5:1 comp (quench pistons or flat tops?), short cam; may not run on pump gas.

 

[Stumper]

iron heads, 10.5:1 comp (quench pistons or flat tops?), short cam; may not run on pump gas.

X2 - I'd be a bit concerned with the compression at 10.5 using the stock heads and mild cam?

 

[Meep-Meep]

I'd ditch the rockers in favor of 1.5 ratio adjustables. This cam is probably on a 110 lobe separation and most likely has a fairly late intake closing spec. and I'd ditch that too. It also may want dual springs, which require extra steps for proper cam break in. Also do some checking regarding your compression ratio. Is it really 10.5:1? 906's are about 90 cc's alone and with a composition head gasket, a large bore chamfer and valve reliefs will put you well over 100. Then as Lew said, what pistons do you have? Zero deck? Quench dome will subtract from the chamber volume. As long as you don't have too much compression I would keep it simple and put in a smaller cam with a 112 lobe separation and single springs with about 110 lbs on the seat. Having less cam will also work better with your currently restrictive 2" exhaust. Go to the "post your 12 second combo" thread and see my 440 build in my 66 Belvedere. It's a cheap, low maintenance, long life build using all stock parts (except for headers). And it runs great!

 

[67 B-body]

I for one think you should try that camshaft..... It has a split duration (Adv. @ only 274 int and 286 exh.) The 1.6 rockers will get the lift up some more without having to add a bunch more torque killing duration. Comp seems to think it works well for a street strip application and claims it to hold more vacuum at idle. This too will provide better throttle responce over some of the big overlap cams out there.
It's not a hard thing to change if you don't like it anyhow....
You said the heads are factory, but include that they have new valves.... I would wonder if the springs are new as well? Perhaps this was a "Package Deal (K)" with camshaft, springs, locks, retainers, etc., all from Comp?

 

[moparbud66]

I will have to check with KB on the compression ratio of the pistons. ( I didn't purchase them) They are flat top with valve reliefs cut in. I did buy the rocker arm package for a fair amount of money though and the pushrods to go with them. I thought the price was right compared to some of the chinese setups offered. The heads do have double springs (done before purchase)and I know theywant you to pull out the inner spring for break in. I actually expected more comments on the torker 440, but am taking all comments and advice seriously. Thanks. Just found out from previous owner that CR is 9.5/1.

 

[Meep-Meep]

I'd be more concerned with when the intake valve closes over anything else because if you don't generate enough cylinder pressure you will have drivability problems. If you indeed have 9.5:1 compression then that sounds like a stock 440 from the era, and that will respond nicely with a very SMALL tweak in the cam department. This cam could very well be the ticket but until you have all the info (not just lift and duration) it's hard to make a judgement. 112 deg lobe separation will give a very good blend of streetability and performance but Comp seems to only make cams on a 110 LS.

Anyway, as mentioned you can always swap it out, however if you do go smaller you will have to remove the inner spring. What I'd do is have the heads checked out with the single and damper then with the inner spring added and record the pressures. That way you know where you stand. Hopefully just removing the inner spring will accommodate a smaller cam if you have to go that route.

 

[383man]

I agree that I would be concerned about the intake valve closing point as that has alot to do with the cyl pressure which has alot to do with detnation. My other worry is with 906 heads and flattop pistons you wont have any quench which helps fight detnation also. If there is any way you could afford Stealth or Eddy closed chamber heads I would go for it as then you can build quench and with aluminum heads you can run up to 11.0 comp on pump with the right cam and quench. Ron

 

[moparbud66]

I brought the spec card with me today.
As 67 B body stated, duration is 274/ 286 (how did you know that?)
open close
at.006 Int. 31 BTDC 63 ABDC
Exh. 77BBDC 29 ATDC

Lobe Sep. 110

Is the intake closing point too late?
I've got some studying to do.
Thanks again for all the input.

 

[Meep-Meep]

The 63 deg @ .006" doesn't sound too bad and probably not too far off of my cam but I don't have my info to compare. I figured this would be on a 110 LS, which means more overlap and reduced vacuum over a 112 LS cam. I suspect it will make good power in the upper mid range / top end and require 4.10 gears or deeper for best quarter mile performance. The Torker intake should work very well with this cam. I'd save this cam for a more stout build but if you just want to throw something together to run for now using mostly stock parts and a fairly restrictive 2" exhaust I'd go a tad smaller and run a dual plane intake. The overall street performance will be great, it will idle cleaner and the carb will work better with higher vacuum. I'd still ditch the 1.6 rockers.

 

[moparbud66]

Thanks Meep-Meep for your suggestions. There has been a couple of chances for me to buy stock rocker arm setups (used) but I resisted thinking that everything else was new and the aluminum set I bought was about the same price as new stamped steel ones. I may still go that way. This is no doubt a lifetime project and money pit and I'm just starting. I'm taking it that on a 112LS cam, it would be a degree each way, intake and exhaust or 2 degrees sooner on the intake?

I was thinking in the neighborhood of a 3:55 ratio.

I am off on a motorcycle trip for the next week. Does anyone care to share the location of a field full of unmolested old Mopars somewhere in the hills of West Virginia-lol?

 

[has2bmopar]

I just put one together for a friend this spring.

440, .030" over, stock rods, forged crank
Diamond pistons, 10.5 to 1 with .010" deck and .039" gaskets
Aluminum 440 Source heads, (which I would recommend Edelbrock now having dealt with them)
Comp retainers, locks and springs
Comp x-treme energy .488"/.491" lift, 230/236 duration @ .050" lift
Hughes 1.6 Ratio roller rockers making .520"/.524 lift
Hedman ceramic headers, 3" collector with 3" full exhaust with X-pipe
Edelbrock RPM intake/ Edelbrock 800 AVS
3.55 gears work really well with this combo.

My only gripe is the cam/valve-train noise, evidently due to the nature of the fast ramp cams. It does have a really broad power range, but I prefer the old school lope with less low end torque, over the valve-train noise.

The noise is also increased with the 1.6 ratio rockers, but I wouldn't want stamped rockers for the sake of adjustability for lifter preload, or even a solid cam in the future, which I believe would make less noise than the present cam.

The biggest misfit that I notice is your 2" exhaust, and I don't recall ever seeing a big block Mopar header that didn't have at least a 3" collector.

 

[Meep-Meep]

Thanks Meep-Meep for your suggestions. There has been a couple of chances for me to buy stock rocker arm setups (used) but I resisted thinking that everything else was new and the aluminum set I bought was about the same price as new stamped steel ones. I may still go that way. This is no doubt a lifetime project and money pit and I'm just starting. I'm taking it that on a 112LS cam, it would be a degree each way, intake and exhaust or 2 degrees sooner on the intake?

I was thinking in the neighborhood of a 3:55 ratio.

I am off on a motorcycle trip for the next week. Does anyone care to share the location of a field full of unmolested old Mopars somewhere in the hills of West Virginia-lol?

I wouldn't use the stock rockers but rather get 1.5:1 iron adjustables. Or maybe these days you can get a good deal on some 1.5:1 roller tips.

The lobe separation spec is somewhat related to overlap. Usually the wider the LS angle the smaller the overlap. The stock 383 Road Runner / 440 Magnum cam is ground on a 115 LS angle and that tends to provide a very wide torque curve but less peak torque than say a 108 LS cam. Factory engines need to work in all weather conditions, be used as daily drivers, get respectable gas mileage, satisfy the performance mined customer when they have the HP designation attached and hold up through the warranty period. Since the factory has to please everybody I'd say there is plenty left on the table in the performance department but you will expect to give up something in the process in the quest for more power. Tightening up the LS angle a little followed by a bit more duration will give an increase in peak torque at a higher RPM while making the idle slightly lumpy. It is said the first criteria in selecting a cam is to start with the overlap (or LS angle).

 

[Al K]

A most educational thread;thanks to all providing info.

I,too,am looking at the Comp XE274 for my cam-of-choice. Realizing that it's not a be-all-end-all,I went to the Comp "Camquest" program,and kept coming back to that cam for my intended combination. My criteria-some of it-was based on producing a broad torque band,utilizing a (no more than-)2500 converter and intended 3.91 gears(though we know gear ratio isn't part of the program's equations),and...a dual-plane intake. I've got an Indy Heads dual-plane and the Performer 440 that I'm running now. But,there's also a Holley Street Dominator single-plane on the shelf...hmmm. Plugging that intake into the "Dyno Results" program produced some dramatically different TQ/HP graphs. As expected,of course.

I'm learning,as are many others. Carry on.

 

[moparbud66]

I was cleaning up the engine bay yesterday, going to paint it before installing the engine, looked at the 2 inch exhaust hanging there and said, nope, too restrictive, gotta go. I'm going to put together what I have and see how it runs for now. Bottom end specs. were right on, now I'm waiting on a silly cam bolt washer to finish. I'm going to consider some aluminum heads for the future.

 

[BuckNeccid]

If you can sell the 906 heads and get a set of aluminum heads, you will run easier on the 10.5 pistons. The aluminum heads carry more heat off and you'll be less likely to have any spark knock, not to mention picking up a few HP from the heads.

 

[RustyRatRod]

This is likely your piston: http://www.kb-silvolite.com/kb_car/performance.php?action=details&P_id=30

With 90cc's (usually what a 906 is around) you'll get 9.7:1. They use a .039 or so compressed thickness, I believe. You can get the .051 thickness gasket and drop compression some, OR you can run a camshaft with a long duration...something on the order of 250-260 @.050. That will be pretty radical...and that's how I am going to build my 383. You'll need at least a 3500 converter and 4 series gears. You know.....old schoolin it. If you don't mind all that, you can have a nice engine with a healthy compression ratio, large cam big converter and deep gears. It'll be a fun ride. One more thing. You can also have the piston tops ceramic coated. It's not real cheap, BUT it aids in heat dispersion so spark knock is less of a problem with high compression.

 

[moparbud66]

Yes, those are the pistons. If I went to aluminum heads ( Summit sells one called E-street ) with less ccs, won't that will raise the compression ratio even more? They also have a complete top end kit but don't give any specs on the cam that is included. I still may switch to a dual plane manifold and good old Thermoquad.