Over priced rebuild ?

[zyzzyx]

$200.00/Hr. labor rate? Good luck with that! I'd pay him $200.00/Hr.
if I stood over him with my .45! Ever see a guy assemble an engine in two hours?

 

[PRHeads]

Remember the three trade offs; Quality, Time, and Cost. Then pick the two that are important to you.

I don’t think it works out quite like that.

If it did, I imagine most would take high quality and low cost.

 

[moper]

Yeah... I think it goes:
Cheap
Fast
Durable
Pick any two.

depending on where you live and your expectation for final product your costs will vary. I don’t think $5500 is bad, depending on the parts list. Most enthusiasts don’t track every nickel, and therefore overlook a lot.

 

[zyzzyx]

For a shop to charge $200.00/Hr., they really have to have special abilities and
equipment. I know all the places around me have flat rates for work because
they know how long it takes to do any certain task. Telling a customer that the
labor rate is $200.00/Hr., just chases customers away. I know I wouldn't think
of dropping my stuff off and have them call me when they were done. You need
to know up-front what it will cost. If you can't give a rock solid estimate on
your work, you need to look for another career. One guy here said a shop had his
engine for over a year! What kind of continuity can you have on a job if it's in
your shop for a year. When I took my block in to have some work done I asked
how much and when? When the guy started to waffle about the date of completion,
I told him that I would find someone else to do the work. He looked deeper into
his crystal ball and gave me a date. He was still four days late, but he knew
I was waiting.

 

[gkent]

$200 an hour is buying you knowledge - and not the kind it takes to machine and assemble but the kind it takes to make power. $200 an hour is "race motor" rate. Its like bodywork and paint, you have the collision shop that's $75 to $90 an hour and then you have the custom/resto shops that are $150 an hour.

Many years ago I took a package from my then employer and then worked some contract jobs for peanuts. In one place I was helping a guy set up an inventory control system and warehouse. The poor guy had no clue and I was giving him some good advice. At one point he asked how I knew so much and I told him I'd spent 20 years in that line of work. That got to management and they came and said "we want you to do it". To which I replied "that's $35 an hour knowledge, you don't get that for the $12 an hour you're paying me".

 

[Mark Barnes]

You’ve got $2050 so far, plus whatever you do for heads(and if you had brought them a complete motor there would be disassembly time on top of that).

Then if you wanted it back complete, more labor.
What would be a reasonable amount of time to assemble a complete 383?
Measure all the clearances, ring caps, degree the cam, etc, then add all the tin.
And of course, someone had to clean all the pieces that got reinstalled...... all billed at the shop hourly rate.

It adds up pretty quick when all the manual labor you’re doing is writing the check.

No argument about the labor, my point is that I just don't see 10K in a rebuild. And of course, the reason I did it the way I did is I don't have 10K to invest in a build like that anyway, so I have to depend on my own labor.

 

[451Mopar]

I don’t think it works out quite like that.

If it did, I imagine most would take high quality and low cost.

Many years ago (maybe 25+ years ago?), I had MadCap Racing machine my 360 engine at a reasonable cost, but it took over 6 Months because they were doing it when they had slow time between building really expensive engines. I'm not sure they even take walk-in business anymore?
https://www.madcapracing.com/

 

[Challenger340]

And here I thought we were too expensive ?
We used to sell .030" over 440's Machined/Assembled at 540 HP/555 Ft/Lbs Trq from Carb to Oil Pan, Water Pump to Flexplate, Plugs/Wires, Complete, Finished, Dyno'd and Crated for shipping at $9,000 USD
and we couldn't make enough money to pay guys and keep the lights on and continue offering them because of the parts we were using like decent Roller Rockers/Pushrods, Forged Pistons, Aluminum Heads, H-Beam Rods, MSD stuff, Aluminum W/Pump and Housing etc., etc.

Alot of them things still out there.... and guys beat on them like a Red-Headed Step Child.... still goin like ever ready bunnies !

 

[moper]

There’s only two reasons a shop goes broke: they don’t do what they say; or they don’t charge enough. Restoration shops have to get more because they have to deliver a higher end product. The talent has to be better. The materials have to be better. The equipment and process “have to be better” because the customer expectation is much higher. Machine shops are no different, except for whatever reason customers “remember when a rebuild was insert-your-number-here...”
I remember those days too. Wages were 1/3 or less of what they are. Equipment was low tech, old, and paid for. And there were distinct pricing levels so the dude at his house couldn’t buy the pistons for the same cost as the shop.

 

[747mopar]

I think it's in the ballpark not knowing what all is needed. I built a 451 stroker, all machine work, parts, etc was $4,500. This was including all ARP fasteners, roller rockers, intake, pushrods, cam, pistons, bearings, valves, springs, etc but assembling it myself.

 

[HawkRod]

I agree that it depends a lot on what needs to be done, but also, you have to remember equipment costs.

First of all, my father-in-law's Sunnen line boring machine was $25,000 more than 20 years ago. His Sunnen boring and honing machine was over $40,000. Shops have to recoup that cost - most of the machines are extremely expensive. Shops have to pay for these machines somehow, so that has to be incorporated into the price.

Then to time. I just learned how to align bore my 340. In my case the tolerance between the low and high end of the spec on the mains is .0005". Right, 5 ten thousands of an inch - that's tight. My block was also screwed up. The mains were too big and also had taper. Cutting the caps at an angle to help fix taper (about 0.0005" on one side and .0009" at the other) is hard. It takes a while to be SURE you have everything setup to cut the cap exactly right. Then when you align bore it is a bit of "voodoo science". Getting a consistent, level cut on all the mains takes some technique and a lot of checking. Hone a little, check a lot, release pressure on caps that are close, etc. The time for all this work to get the mains spot on is very time consuming.

So as someone said it all depends on the level of work that needs to be done (and how closely tolerances are adhered to).

 

[moper]

... and in my case- if you were “in tolerance” and there’s .0005” variance, if it was for a special application where I needed certain clearances, I’d be pissed. I had that discussion with my “pretty good” guy. The “perfect” guy asks what I want for specs. That’s the difference. And that adds about 5% to my cost to get it.

 

[451Mopar]

I have had some machine shops pass parts discounts to me which helps offset some of the machining costs.
I don't know how common that is, but has saved me $$$ compared to buying from Summit or Jegs.

 

[Challenger340]

The following is a true story.
Back in the 1990's.... there was a time when most of the what I used to call "jobber" automotive machine shops were going broke, this was happening because the "Bread & Butter" rebuilder engine business dried up.... and people could go buy/Finance a new vehicle cheaper than putting an Engine in the old terd they had.

We were always just fine at our Shop because we didn't do 'jobber' Machine work, we were strictly HP/Racing/Blueprinting style Engine Machining lotsa work because we were involved in the Racing/High Performance Engine end of things.... which many of the "jobber" Automotive Machine Shops did attempt to get into ? but they had NO CLUE what they were doing and just Blew people's junk up..... left, right and center !

Back then.... we had a fella who got Laid Off from one of the more well known "Jobber" Automotive Machine Shops after working there for 30 years.... so he came in and applied for a job at our Shop.
He was friends with one of the guys wo worked for me.... I felt sorry for the guy, so I hired him because I figured with 30 years experience he should be OK for something right ?
Long Story short...
2 weeks later he came into my Office and he FIRED HIMSELF !

He said.... " I had no idea.... I feel like I've been doing it wrong my entire Life"
I said... "don't worry about it Fred... you'll pick it up, just take your time, work with Johnny and you'll get it in time, no rush"
He Said again.... " Nope, I'm done.... you see your "basic" Rod Prep is 8 steps ahead of what we used to call a done and finished Rod.... I had NO CLUE.
Even you guys's Head rebuilding.... Boring & Honing... ALL Of it.... I had NO IDEA this is the way it is supposed to be done.... like I said, it's like everything we did for the last 30 years over at *****'s was a joke"
So he fired himself....

The morale of the story....
there is a very distinct difference between Engine Blueprinting type Machining.... and "Generic" Engine Machining.
and while it's very true that "**** WILL run"....
don't confuse Blueprinting and "jobber' machining in Pricing.... BIG Difference in both Quality and Price.

 

[451Mopar]

Back in the 1990's I almost bought a machine shop, but it was a "jobber" type place. After seeing what equipment they were using, and how much machine work they needed to farm out (all the crank & balancing work), I passed on that.

 

[Challenger340]

Back in the 1990's I almost bought a machine shop, but it was a "jobber" type place. After seeing what equipment they were using, and how much machine work they needed to farm out (all the crank & balancing work), I passed on that.

We still do everything in house here,
except...
we don't grind Cranks anymore..... didn't make any financial sense anymore, nor do any of the remaining shops that I know of within a 600 mile radius ?
We ALL use one fella to grind our Cranks who we all support.... and he setup and grinds Cranks from his home.... that's ALL he does... and we keep him as 'one guy" busy.
Think about it.....
most of the Crank Grinding Machines left out there are from the 1960's/1970's and are worn out/sloppy bedways..... and with the very few Cranks each single Shop can Grind anymore they can't afford to rebuild the Machine and keep a guy on staff or train anybody properly ?
so only makes sense for a bunch of shops to work together to keep one guy viable/profitable and his Machine maintained.

 

[Ron H]

A lot of knowledgeable guys on this thread! Yeah, gone are the days with shops having guys that know how to machine an engine. Two guys I know from back when, one of them machining a few motors for me for around 30% of the cost of what I see today, are in my boat – reeetired (some others I knew are dead). There are fewer shops around my area at least, that can or will do this kind of work anymore. My last motor rebuild, decided to let ‘em do it (as opposed to having the machine work done and assembling myself) came out around $7k. Depends on how much you want to DIY or let the shop do (this hasn’t changed, lol). In any case, know exactly what you want or need done and be clear on this btw you and the shop to avoid any surprises. Your $5.5k price doesn’t sound out of line – being clear on what’s going to be done. They will buy their parts often at a discount; but this doesn’t get passed to you (even though some say they do). These places aren’t charitable organizations with overhead and equipment costs to pay. And good machinists make good money.

 

[rolling_Thunder]

I just had my 440 block gone through at my local shop... ended up being about $1700 for machine work... decking, bore, hone, mag-flux, clean, prep, paint, polish crank, balance rotating assembly, cut a 2nd keyway in the crank... $250 to assemble the shortblock (I just didnt want to deal with it) - Then $280 for him to go through my TF240s including the cost of springs, keepers, retainers. He ended up decking the heads and touched up the valve seats.

I dropped off the complete 440 short block and got one back with all the machine work done. I also dropped off pistons, cam, timing set - so those costs were not factored into the machine shop cost. but overall I am happy with the price and work - about ~$2300 for actual machine work and assembly.

Most importantly is I have worked with the owner for years and I TRUST his work.

 

[grtflred]

Here in NJ (Since moved to Florida) Finding a machine shop that would touch a MOPAR at any cost was tough. I was lucky and found a shop. The 4 month wait hurt more than the $$$. Built my 512 myself. Stealth kit and heads. Runs great.
Now in Florida shops are half the price and there are a few around. Paying for quality machine work on a 10K engine is not a problem. They mess up you could have a boat anchor.

 

[36Coupe]

I'm $7600 into a 340-416 stroker rebuild.... and I'm doing the assembly... lol
New Trickflow heads, Howard cam, Scat balanced rotating assembly with forged rods and pistons, bored 30 over, roller rockers and lifters, Milodon oil pan, new pump, performance timing chain set, Performer RPM intake, AVS Thunder Series 800, billet distributor, performance wires.... and the list goes on..... but.... I can't wait to light up the tires on my 36 Plymouth 5 window coupe.