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Pushbutton A727 shavings in pan...

Sir Dodge alot

Sir Dodge alot

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(This is a copy & paste from FCBO)

Hello and well met.

It's been 200 or so miles after I rebuilt the Pushbutton A727 and have dropped the pan multiple times to check the health of the transmission.

The shavings in the pan are silver in color.
(planetary gears/bushings?)

Is the amount of shavings acceptable as "normal" wear?
I'm not seeing the pile growing in size after dropping the pan at least 3 times now.

Still shifts fine, but maybe the shifts are slightly softer? (Softer shifts when up to operating temperature)
(Break-in with the bands on the trans getting accustomed to daily driving status?)

There were fuzzies on the filter end, clutch material?

Appreciate any inputs.
Thanks.

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Are you cleaning the pan each time before reinstallation? If so, that is too much wear/damage.
Mike
 
That looks like converter debris to me. Appears to be aluminum. Is it magnetic? Before the current build what was the failure? Same converter now? Was it flushed? Were the cooler and lines flushed? If you had that much metal from a planet it would magnetic and more than likely have a pretty good whine. I've only seen 3 planets fail in 40+ years of building these units.
Doug
 
Maybe some bushing material in there too,my ipad isn’t the best.
 
493 Mike said:
Are you cleaning the pan each time before reinstallation? If so, that is too much wear/damage.
Mike
Click to expand...
No, I didn't want to disturb the "pile" to see whether the shavings pile was indeed growing.

Present day: pan has been cleaned out with some advice from FCBO.

Will drop the pan soon as it's almost time again.
 
dvw said:
That looks like converter debris to me. Appears to be aluminum. Is it magnetic? Before the current build what was the failure? Same converter now? Was it flushed? Were the cooler and lines flushed? If you had that much metal from a planet it would magnetic and more than likely have a pretty good whine. I've only seen 3 planets fail in 40+ years of building these units.
Doug
Click to expand...
Hi there apologies for the long post, TLDR.

Yes I have got a new Torque converter from Hughes performance torque converters.
Part number #19-20.

Regarding the lines, I'm temporarily running rubber high pressure hoses routing from transmission to the radiator then the auxiliary cooler then to an inline filter then back to the transmission return line fitting.

The previous transmission's problem was it started slipping and not going into gear, raise the RPM a bit then it clunks into gear.

Regarding Noises, it sounds the same, before I even took apart the transmission, all nominal.

3 things that does come to mind with the shavings,

- #1 I blueprinted areas in the case where there were casting flash with a file, I was meticulously cleaning to ensure shavings were not left behind, but may have left some residual shavings...

- #2 I have drilled a 1/8 hole in the case to create extra lubrication passage to allow the one way clutch to receive more lube aside from the splash lubrication.

- #3 I have ground down 1 bushing that was (originally) not supporting the rear planetary,
To tighten up the clearance to about 25/30 thousands endplay, I do realize there is no bushing here in the very rear of the planetary, but according to some other sources:

"as long as the endplay is in spec, it won't matter to put in an extra bushing or so"

The debris or some of it, at least looks to be magnetic, but most of it is sitting at the center of the pan.

Hence the rebuild, the original transmission has shifted remarkably for 61 years, impressive.

Present day: trans developed a leak around tailshaft seal and the dipstick tube, will seal it up today, also the transmission is still shifting fine and no weird noises, will drop the pan in the future again.

Some of the rebuild tips were actually from you @dvw I believe the modification with the bushing came from one of your posts, or from the late Carl Munroe's rebuild book.

Thanks.

Below are the pictures where I have added the additional bushing,
(the original planetary is used as an example)
The NEW 4 pinion REAR planetary did not have this thin washer where the original one was in place.

In turn I placed the bushing to take the place of the washer/bushing my finger is pointing at.

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Looks like some fuzz on the pan magnet. There is not that much metal in wear areas of the transmission; mostly aluminum. With metal filings, I would suspect a problem with torque converter.
 
Hello there.
Dave6T4 said:
Looks like some fuzz on the pan magnet. There is not that much metal in wear areas of the transmission; mostly aluminum. With metal filings, I would suspect a problem with torque converter.
Click to expand...
Would you suspect maybe not clean enough workspace which may have allowed shavings from the case blueprinting process?

Thank you for the input,, I'll keep tabs on this matter with dropping the pan and giving the occasional health check.

Also, another question, the planetaries being aluminum (and most parts inside also being aluminum) does this somewhat pinpoint where the shavings could be coming from?

I reckon the pump rotor front & rear being steel would be easy to spot, observing the magnet for shavings maybe?

Thanks.
 
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A friend had his transmission start to go away, but we were at a car show about 125 miles from home, so he decided to drive it as far as he could. he got home with it, but it was really sick by this time. He pulled the transmission and brought it to me, since my side hustle was rebuilding TorqueFlights. I took the 727 apart and the pan had a lot of metal filings in it. The torque converter kinda ate itself up, and the oil pump pumped the filings throught the transmission. Every soft aluminum or brass wear surface was chewed up. I have never seen such a destroyed transmission, before or since. I am still in awe that the car made it all the 125 miles home. Everything in this transmission was junk. we even had to throw the case away. I think I made a "TorkLight" floor lamp for Richard with his case. My message here is, If you think your torque converter is going, don't keep driving your car, because the metal shards will eat your transmission alive.

P3150023.JPG
 
Dave6T4 said:
A friend had his transmission start to go away, but we were at a car show about 125 miles from home, so he decided to drive it as far as he could. he got home with it, but it was really sick by this time. He pulled the transmission and brought it to me, since my side hustle was rebuilding TorqueFlights. I took the 727 apart and the pan had a lot of metal filings in it. The torque converter kinda ate itself up, and the oil pump pumped the filings throught the transmission. Every soft aluminum or brass wear surface was chewed up. I have never seen such a destroyed transmission, before or since. I am still in awe that the car made it all the 125 miles home. Everything in this transmission was junk. we even had to throw the case away. I think I made a "TorkLight" floor lamp for Richard with his case. My message here is, If you think your torque converter is going, don't keep driving your car, because the metal shards will eat your transmission alive.

View attachment 1709053
Click to expand...
Sucks that the transmission will be eternally shelved, but it has found a new lease in life with the TorkLite. Patent pending! Lol

Regarding Whether the torque converter may or truly is going out or not, I don't have a clue on troubleshooting Bad or failing torque converters.
I guess just shavings in the pan, and degrading performance are some signs of a bad torque converter?
 
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Apologies and thank you for your patience, had some trouble with the usual backordered transmission filter.
NOW, back in the pan again, less shavings in the pan when i dropped few weeks back.

Same good fluid color & smell, small fuzzies on the magnet.

Filter looks to be partially clogged? (Filter Dacron media hugging the suction ports)

Filter removed from the valve body, picture in better light.

Will adjust bands while I'm in here, 72 inch pounds with adjustment screw 2 1/2 turns out.
I believe I can use both band adjustments with the same specs, the FSM mentions 3 turns out but that may be too loose, no?

Forgot to mention, there is a whining noise coming from the center of the trans/engine, probably converter?

When I put it in any gear selection then neutral.
The noise comes back.

Here's the kicker, while the whining noise is present, I shift to reverse then neutral, then the sound disappears.

To make the noise come back, I can raise the RPM in neutral and it will start whining again.
(Hopefully not transmission related??)

Hopefully it may be a freak vacuum leak.
Crossing my fingers.
The noise honestly sounds like a super charger.

And yes I have cleaned the pan before reinstalling, I guess transmission maintenance common sense didn't quite "click" with me.
Really I'm surprised I was even able to reassemble the transmission in the first place.
Considering my dubious maintenance handling.
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I can see by the the Park cable housing, that you are working on a cable-shifted 727. I think you may be using the wrong fluid filter. If you turn it over, does it have 2 intake holes? The early 727's have a front and a rear oil pump, each with its own intake hole in the bottom.of the valve body. Sometimes, a whining noise indicates oil starvation at the pump.
If that little pile of silver in your pan sticks to a magnet, you have problems since there is very little steel in the transmission that can shed. The whining and metal in your pan could indicate that your torque converter is failing.
 
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Super fine clutch dust is normal, glitter is not. Particles of that size means trouble. When I had trash like that in the pan it turned out to be the converter…
 
Dave6T4 said:
I can see by the the Park cable housing, that you are working on a cable-shifted 727. I think you may be using the wrong fluid filter. If you turn it over, does it have 2 intake holes? The early 727's have a front and a rear oil pump, each with its own intake hole in the bottom.of the valve body. Sometimes, a whining noise indicates oil starvation at the pump.
If that little pile of silver in your pan sticks to a magnet, you have problems since there is very little steel in the transmission that can shed. The whining and metal in your pan could indicate that your torque converter is failing.
Click to expand...
Hi Dave, correct. This is a pushbutton A727, so it's got the rear pump and I am using the filter that has the 2 intake ports on it.

The shiny bits of glitter and other foreign matter is in fact aluminum, none of the debris is sticking to the magnet, the magnet that was in the pan was pretty much the "only" foreign matter that was sticking to the magnet.

I've had my suspicions that the Torque converter is failing, unfortunate, as it's only been about 500 miles since the transmission has been rebuilt and the NEW Torque converter from Hughes.

This is the exact filter I'm using.
WIX # 58658

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Black_Sheep said:
Super fine clutch dust is normal, glitter is not. Particles of that size means trouble. When I had trash like that in the pan it turned out to be the converter…
Click to expand...
Hi Black sheep, I was just telling Dave here that I've had my suspicions on the Torque converter, but didn't want to jump to conclusions.

But unfortunate as it is trans needs to come back out and may just put the original time tested Torque converter back in.
 
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