Replacing Furnace

[Skytrooper]

Well, this has turned into quite the mental gymnastics. I live in the northeast (near Buffalo, NY) My current oil furnace and air conditioner are 22 years old. Since oil furnaces are going the way of the dinosaur, and are being phased out completely, I started looking at my choices. I have had 6 HVAC sales people out.

1. High Efficiency LP furnace and central air conditioner.

2. Stand alone Air source heat pump.

3. Hybrid system which, as the name suggests, is a heat pump with a propane furnace for backup heating when the temperature is @30 degrees Fahrenheit and below.

The first choice is the least expensive option and would save money as fuel oil is way more expensive than propane. It is also the simpler solution that would heat my home in an identical manner to my oil furnace. I.E. the furnace would only run when heat is needed, and likewise for the air conditioner.

The second choice is marginally more expensive than the first and uses the existing ducting. It seems simple enough, but then you get into all the SEER, HSFP, correct tonnage, etc. it gets a bit confusing. Pro’s are: simple design, uses existing ductwork, is both the heating and air conditioning, uses electric only. Con’s: electric is very expensive here, would be running 24/7/365, a cold weather rated unit uses a resistive heating sub element to help it function if outside temperature is below 30degrees, this sub element uses major electricity (i.e. lose all efficiency)…and they all warn that it is a “different” kind of heat. Not sure what that means. Plus it still might not be able to effectively heat the home.

The third choice (hybrid) is the most expensive and to me seems to be a band aid for a system that they know doesn’t effectively heat a home in cold climates. This system uses a propane furnace to make up for the cold weather shortcomings of the standalone heat pump (option 2). When it gets to 30 degrees and below outside, the LP furnace comes on the help heat the home. So, this option has 2 systems running at the same time throughout the entire heating season (4-5 months long). Plus it still has to run the resistive heat sub element to keep the outside unit from freezing. So during the heating season, I would be using LP, and about two times the electricity that I use now. I base this on the energy required for the heat pump, then add in all the energy for the resistive sub element, and the energy for the LP furnace….and the LP itself.

So to round out this long winded tome, I would love to hear about my fellow FBBO's thoughts and experiences with this issue.

Thanks !

P.S. if I go with the first choice, I can afford a home standby generator. For all the expense of electricity here, we have poor infrastructure which causes numerous outages. Yea haw

 

[hunt2elk]

For me? 97% 2 stage LP furnace and straight AC without a doubt.

 

[Hey-O]

High Efficiency LP furnace and central air conditioner. I've had enough homes to know one thing, keep it simple.

 

[toolmanmike]

How cold does it get in the winter? Just an average with some occasional cold snaps. Here in northern Iowa, it is freezing or just below for Dec- Mar with occasional cold snaps in Jan that stay sub zero to -20 for a few days. Everybody here uses Nat. Gas which is cheaper but not as efficient as LP. Most new systems are heat pump with a gas furnace large enough to heat the house in extreme cold. The A/C units are stand alone using the furnace ductwork ans an "A coil" evaporator above the plenum in the air handler unit. This is a system without a heat pump. I should ask the neighbor but with his heat pump, I don't believe he has a A/C back up.

 

[gkent]

Are there any grants available? I'm right across the lake from you - pretty much every year there's a government grant of some sort or other when you improve the energy efficiency of your home. A grant makes the decision a lot easier!

 

[Wojo68]

I went through this two months ago, when I was doing my rear deck over. Course it was hot as balls. Central ac **** the bed. I have a forced hot air system. I changed out the furnace because it was just as old. A heat pump runs on straight electricity, it won’t be able to keep up with the cold up there. It will continually run, cost you a lot in electric bills and you’ll still need a secondary heat source. I went with a Bosch unit. A duel fuel condenser outside for the ac. It does heat also. (Natural gas/electric ) A Bosch furnace (natural gas) for the heat. Like gkent asked, are there grants available in your area? They give you some decent money back but make sure that the system installer is (grant) certified. If I can answer any questions just
DM me.

 

[Skytrooper]

Climate here is very cold and snowy late November through the end of March. Last year was the relatively mild winter, which is not the norm.
NY rebates are not advantageous even with the better systems. There is about 2400-4000 off of a 20000 system.

 

[65CopCar]

Have quite a bit of experience with this. First choice you did not mention is a geothermal heat pump. Expensive to install but flat out the cheapest to run. But it is a long-term investment and you need to plan on being their a long time.

Next choice would be heat pump with LP backup and electrical as a backup to that. I like multiple choices of backup. I remember when oil heating was way cheaper than LP. And good heat pumps will definitely do better than 30 degrees.

No way would I do an air heat pump without LP backup in your area. In Cincinnati my electric backup struggles in very cold temps. I have considered adding LP backup.

 

[Triplegreen500]

One important question I haven't seen here is, how well insulated is the house?

I'm on the windward side of a mountain in Maryland. Winters are typically below freezing for extended periods of time, with quite a few days/weeks in single digits, and a constant breeze/wind (my porch American flag has to get replaced nearly annually due to shredding from the non-stop wind).

My house was (over)built in 1987, by a custom home builder who built it for himself - hence, the "over"built note. Stone shell around double 2x6 interior walls - a 19" thick shell, with Andersen thermopane windows with storm windows. It's a freakin' vault.

I have an oil boiler for hot water baseboards, in the basement. No idea if it works...never messed with it.

I have an air heat pump with electric aux heat, and a thermostat (ecobee3) that lets me lock out the aux heat above a certain temp. I found that the air heat pump works just fine down to about 18F, so I have my lockout set at 20f. With my insulation, it keeps up just fine, summer or winter, and does not run 'constantly'. The cost is going up as they keep raising the rates per kWh...but it is still manageable. Comparable to what I spent monthly in my old house, on pellets for the pellet stove - granted, nowhere near the insulation this place has, but it was also in a holler and didn't have all the constant wind I have here.

I have thought about updating my living room chimney so I can use "free" firewood from the forest behind my house to augment the electric...but it would strictly be an ambience-and-savings thing, not a "need to do it to keep up" thing.

 

[cr8crshr]

Your first step is to research and apply for some of these incentives for your situation. There is $$$ out there for just what you are going through...cr8crshr/Bill

2024 HVAC Rebates and Incentives for Homeowners | Modernize

Explore new federal energy guidelines for 2024 and learn about HVAC rebates and energy-efficient incentive programs aimed toward homeowners.

modernize.com

 

[gkent]

There is about 2400-4000 off of a 20000 system.

That's a 12 to 20 % incentive. What the hell are you expecting ?!?!?

 

[Cop car wagon]

They claim heat pumps work down to 30°, but the efficency drops below 40° to pointless.
LP has way less btu's than natural gas.
You have to be on a gas pipeline for NG, and they never figure the monthly meter charge into gas cost.
Oil heat is the best. Plus, you can buy diesel when the oil delivery can't make it.
You can buy diesel when the price is down. And it stores well.
When I do it over, oil burner, with heat pump. With a wood stove backup.

 

[65CopCar]

They claim heat pumps work down to 30°, but the efficency drops below 40° to pointless.

My old house here in Cincinnati was around 1900 square feet. Well insulated 2 story. 2 ton heat pump from 1988. When it got really cold it took a while to properly warm up, but very tolerable. Wasn't an issue. When I replaced it in 2004, I found out the electric strip heaters were never wired up. So to say that heat pumps don't work well in cold temps does not register with me. And per my calculations we never paid more than $80 a month premium in the coldest months versus months that did not utilize heating or cooling.

My 900 square foot shop also had a 2 ton heat pump and it ran without backup no matter how cold it got and it warmed the shop just fine.

Now my current house is from 1996 and is a single story that I figure is not all that well insulated due to the type of construction with the vaulted ceilings. It has a the most expensive Goodman 4 ton that you could buy in 2021. Even with 15 kw of electric strip heaters this thing struggles when you get below 20 degrees outside. Working on making it better. It sucks right now.

Now the 3 mini splits I have are hyper units and they are rated to -22 deg F.

 

[Skytrooper]

I built my house in 1987. It has 2x6 exterior walls that are fully insulated. Anderson dual pane thermal windows. Roof is fully insulated too + two layers of shingles and a steel roof over that, with a dead air space between. It is a 1400 sq ft Cape Cod

 

[MarPar]

 

[1967coronet]

I would also go with the propane fueled furnace .
Check with fuel suppliers , around here there options. Some companies will supply the tank and line if you purchase their fuel.
Others you can shop for the best prices per gal. If you own your tank.
Another plus is contracting and paying ahead of time for X many gallons at a reduced rate.
Probably to late this year but something to look into if you go the propane route.
One last thing I will add is if you set your own tank and run the line DO NOT have any splices in the trench. A propane leak can follow the trench to the home.

 

[alsant]

LP gas , 2 stage is bad if your older cause once it hits temp the slow stage keeps it there and you don’t feel the usual heat blowing as in. 1 stage. We put one in before we moved to AZ and we never felt warm.

 

[MarPar]

LP gas , 2 stage is bad if your older cause once it hits temp the slow stage keeps it there and you don’t feel the usual heat blowing as in. 1 stage. We put one in before we moved to AZ and we never felt warm.

Bet ya feel warm all the time now, dontcha??

Still jealous you escaped. Sorry.

 

[hunt2elk]

LP gas , 2 stage is bad if your older cause once it hits temp the slow stage keeps it there and you don’t feel the usual heat blowing as in. 1 stage. We put one in before we moved to AZ and we never felt warm.

That is just crazy. You either had the wrong size equipment installed or the installer did not set the unit up correctly. One of the big advantages of a 2 stage furnace is comfort. ECM blowers ramp up and down instead of coming on full bore right away and on low fire they run a lot slower to boot. Or maybe you had a cheaper furnace that didn't have an ECM blower? Regardless, your statement is not correct. 95% of the furnaces I install are 2 stage with ECM blowers, the models that qualify for the $600 Federal Tax Credit. Word of mouth sells them for me, because of comfort and quietness. The other 5% usually go into rental houses.

 

[BMosely]

Coming from oil you will be sorely disappointed with a heat pump. That said, I like dual fuel with the heat pump and then LP in my case. The heat pump does fine down to about 40*. After that it just moves luke warm air around. I let the wife run it up with the heat pump engaged and then, thru the thermostat, I can choose LP or heat pump. Once winter sets in it is all LP and the Buck Stove. I burn about 3 cords a year.