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Replacing Furnace

I'm guessing we're kind of neighbors here, in the area. We replaced our original furnace last year, from 1986. We didn't want the high efficiency gas, so we went with the standard, guessing 80%er. We had a working A/C unit, and they mated it pretty well. I think cost was about $3300 installed, and it has worked well. We usually get the wood stove going when it gets extreme, but didn't burn much last year, as it wasn't needed too often. We're the East side of Erie Co, and the Company works all around. PM me if you're interested...
 
You live where winter is winter. Just get a regular furnace and AC. Mind you, the AC unit starting Jan 1 will have flammable coolant and will cost a F ton more. Not sure how you are figuring this but you might want to see if they have any older ones left :(

Heat pumps are fine if you live in Tennessee or North Carolina and "cold" is 50 degrees out. In real winter you have to burn things to make heat.

If you want a back up? Put some electric base boards in. But you can't heat with electric either as a main, unless you want 900 dollar monthly bills from it. But they are nice in a pinch, and a second option is nice in case of LP disruptions.
 
I think ours was pre variable motor control , so 2 speed. And yes it might have been set up wrong. We couldn’t get used to it in the winter. Ours was 95% and we got a good chunk from the state back then , we also did new air conditioner and that worked great.
 
I just replaced our furnace and ac, the efficiency rating qualified us for rebates from our power and natural gas suppliers as well as a federal tax credit totaling a little over $2500.
 
regarding the "different" heat...I've got a heat pump here in NC...to over simplify it just runs the a/c backwards so the evaporator becomes the condenser and vice versa...so you're trying to find heat from outside where its below freezing...so if its too cold it needs to be supplimented with something, either electric or gas...and the air coming in through the ducts does not feel warm at all...it kinda tries to keep the house at 68 degrees by blowing in mass amounts of 70-80 degree air...if you're cold and go over to a duct to warm your hands it feels like its blowing cold air at you...
 
When we built our house, they were trying to talk us into a high velocity heat & a/c system, but we opted for a boiler that mounts on the wall in the basement & forced hot water baseboards throughout the house. We also have a separate a/c unit mounted in the attic. This set up works much better than the forced hot air furnace with plumbed in a/c which our old house had.
 
Well, this has turned into quite the mental gymnastics. I live in the northeast (near Buffalo, NY) My current oil furnace and air conditioner are 22 years old. Since oil furnaces are going the way of the dinosaur, and are being phased out completely, I started looking at my choices. I have had 6 HVAC sales people out.

1. High Efficiency LP furnace and central air conditioner.

2. Stand alone Air source heat pump.

3. Hybrid system which, as the name suggests, is a heat pump with a propane furnace for backup heating when the temperature is @30 degrees Fahrenheit and below.

The first choice is the least expensive option and would save money as fuel oil is way more expensive than propane. It is also the simpler solution that would heat my home in an identical manner to my oil furnace. I.E. the furnace would only run when heat is needed, and likewise for the air conditioner.

The second choice is marginally more expensive than the first and uses the existing ducting. It seems simple enough, but then you get into all the SEER, HSFP, correct tonnage, etc. it gets a bit confusing. Pro’s are: simple design, uses existing ductwork, is both the heating and air conditioning, uses electric only. Con’s: electric is very expensive here, would be running 24/7/365, a cold weather rated unit uses a resistive heating sub element to help it function if outside temperature is below 30degrees, this sub element uses major electricity (i.e. lose all efficiency)…and they all warn that it is a “different” kind of heat. Not sure what that means. Plus it still might not be able to effectively heat the home.

The third choice (hybrid) is the most expensive and to me seems to be a band aid for a system that they know doesn’t effectively heat a home in cold climates. This system uses a propane furnace to make up for the cold weather shortcomings of the standalone heat pump (option 2). When it gets to 30 degrees and below outside, the LP furnace comes on the help heat the home. So, this option has 2 systems running at the same time throughout the entire heating season (4-5 months long). Plus it still has to run the resistive heat sub element to keep the outside unit from freezing. So during the heating season, I would be using LP, and about two times the electricity that I use now. I base this on the energy required for the heat pump, then add in all the energy for the resistive sub element, and the energy for the LP furnace….and the LP itself.

So to round out this long winded tome, I would love to hear about my fellow FBBO's thoughts and experiences with this issue.

Thanks !

P.S. if I go with the first choice, I can afford a home standby generator. For all the expense of electricity here, we have poor infrastructure which causes numerous outages. Yea haw
As a licensed HVAC technician, I would recommend option 1. Heat pumps are still evolving with regards to meeting heating demand below 32 degrees OAT. Some ductless manufactureres have made headway with "hyper-heat" technology, but I'd rather recommend tried and true equipment. Buffalo has spretty extreme cold so go with the separate propane and central AC option. If a furnace with a stainless steel heat exchange is within your budget, I'd consider that too.

Propane burns "wet" so be sure to have your new system serviced every year.
 
If you have cold winters I would stay away from the heat pump systems.
I think they are phasing out the 410A A/C systems for newer style freon (More expensive systems.)
Just replaced my system 2 years ago with a RHEEM 4-Ton 16.5 SEER A/C, and 100,000 BTU 80% (no new venting and such) 2-stage variable speed blower unit. So far I'm real happy with it. I think it was around $4,000 for the A/C and Heater, and paid $2,000 to have it installed (Hard to find places to install a unit they don't sell you.) I think going to the next more efficent setup was like a $2,000+ jump in price? Also the size and weight of the A/C unit increased when looking at 17+ SEER units.
 
Propane burns "wet" so be sure to have your new system serviced every year.


Service what ?
 
In 2011 we put a new oil burner in. We also had a wood stove. When oil hit $4-5 gallon I said screw this got to be something better to supplement our oil heat. About 3-4 years ago we put a wood furnace in and only use the oil for showers, dishwasher and laundry. If it's 30 out our house is 73-4 degrees downstairs and 68-9 degrees upstairs. It was the best $6,000 money could buy. The wood stove roasted you out while this furnace is like having a big hair dryer on 24hrs a day. I know this isn’t for everyone but it cut my heating bill to about 25-30% of what it was as the wood stove was very inefficient. I do tree work so I always have wood to burn, it's good exercise and with the Emerald Ash Borer there will be wood for quite a few more years around here...Pleasant to look at also.
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Yes, 410 refrigerant will not be available for sale after 1 Jan 2025. After that all ac units and condensers will have the new stuff which requires sensors that will shut the system off until a repairman can come fix it. And do you know why it has leak sensors ? The new refrigerant is flammable. It is a crazy world
 
Yes, 410 refrigerant will not be available for sale after 1 Jan 2025. After that all ac units and condensers will have the new stuff which requires sensors that will shut the system off until a repairman can come fix it. And do you know why it has leak sensors ? The new refrigerant is flammable. It is a crazy world
The entire thing is one giant pile of gov't sticking it's nose into something that wasn't an issue to start with.
But, not much to do about it now.

My AC is from 1996. There is a drop in replacement for the coolant, but every local repair guy by me tells me they never heard of it or don't want to deal with it. Rather sell me a new unit. I would do it myself but you need a license to buy the coolant at this point, so I can't order it. The equipment to do it is still rentable at the local hardware. I just can't buy the actual product.
We are a skip and a jump from "AC as a service" like hulu TV or some BS.
 
i replaced my 32 yr. old york 2.5t heat pump last year with a complete new air handler and condensor 3.5t! I'm pretty happy with it, my discharge air temp use to be about 80 which did feel cool if you were near a register and now it's about 100. the new condensor unit is very quiet, use to sound like a plane flying beside the house, the dc motor driven condensor fan is barely audible! The only thing that has my concern is the new system has 4 circuit boards compared to the original having just one ecm with built in defrost timer!
the new system has self diagnostics which should make any issues resolve easily as long as parts are available! it does have electric backup in case of system failure and i also have couple fireplaces in the house!
with gov. rebate [which took almost a year to receive} cost me $2500 all in including inspections, sometimes things work out!
 
The entire thing is one giant pile of gov't sticking it's nose into something that wasn't an issue to start with.
But, not much to do about it now.

My AC is from 1996. There is a drop in replacement for the coolant, but every local repair guy by me tells me they never heard of it or don't want to deal with it. Rather sell me a new unit. I would do it myself but you need a license to buy the coolant at this point, so I can't order it. The equipment to do it is still rentable at the local hardware. I just can't buy the actual product.
We are a skip and a jump from "AC as a service" like hulu TV or some BS.
Do you realize its quite easy to get an EPA license? I got mine 30+ years ago with minimum studying. Only studied for Type 1 and passed Type I & II. Did not pass Type III but Type II gets me to 50 ton units.

I don't think it has changed but maybe........
 
We live in North Carolina but we also know what the weather can be like up north as I was born and raised in Syracuse New York for 48 years. When I retired and built a new home a few years ago we put in a Heat Pump with a propane furnace as backup heat. The house is never cold in winter, never hot in summer and our average electric & propane bill is a little over $125 a month. Later this year once our propane tank gets topped off I’ll recalculate our monthly cost again. FYI, if we ever move back to Syracuse I’ll have the same type of system installed.
 
Do you realize its quite easy to get an EPA license? I got mine 30+ years ago with minimum studying. Only studied for Type 1 and passed Type I & II. Did not pass Type III but Type II gets me to 50 ton units.

I don't think it has changed but maybe........
You know maybe I will look into that....
 
Up here we have Propane or Electric, or a water heat pump or firewood
the later are not very good heat forms, not very effective or efficient either
We have no natural gas up here at all, too much granite they claim to trench thru...

so it's Propane or Electric
solar is a total joke when it snows, don't get me even started

Propane is volatile (cost more to use) & it goes up & down a lot, like the market
when we did ours,
a 'Train' (& Carrier) HVAC Heat split pump & air handler in the garage,
in like 2013 IIRC
4 tone A/C unit, (not sure the seer rating) & 4,000 watts (heat),
we unplugged 1 bank, so it's 2000 watts of heat, 4,000 watts was pricy to run
if the 1) 2000 watt heating element ever burns out,
we always got the other one to plug in to
Now after the 1st month we needed the heater, not so expensive to use,
I set the thermostat at 68* winter & 77* summer
pretty dang affordable & pretty dang comfortable "NOW"

(we have a wood stove too, but dad's breathing is poor, so I don't usually use it,
unless the power goes out, I have a 3,500 watt generator too)



(we had a swamp cooler for years, made the house humid as ****,
house was built in 1989 'archaic thinking even for then', to not do HVAC,
we 'had' a propane heater/forced air handler unit in the garage
)

our PG&E (electric) has gone up 40%+,
but not as much as Propane has
we were using like 220 cu/ft per month of propane, mostly in winter
at it's low of like $1.84 per/cu ft, it's nowhere near that cheap now
our electric bill went up like $100-$125 in the winter, after the HVAC unit
(we are in a Co-op 'to buy Propane in bulk prices", to way better price,
that the reg Joe Smoe
)
But nothing like the propane bill 'was'...

Propane is like $2.84+ per/cu ft now, with the Co-op even, we saved $3,000+ annually
going electric for us, just in the less propane aspects...

It's 3 bd 2 bath single story, 2x6 walls T-111 siding, comp roof,
18" of insolation blown in the attic & above the 2 car garage,
1660+sq/ft house, it gets to 105*f+ at times here,
stays hot till 10pm at night
in summer, & down to about 15*f at the lowest, norm of 28*-30*f midday
in mid Jan. 'maybe' less some years
our winters are usually mild-ish, 32*- 45*
still able to drive classic cars for about 10 months a year, even here
"most years"

but we get like 3 of every 7 are harsh, winters
like 2021, 2022, 2023, El Ninio years... we got dumped on, big time

we had a crapload of snow/cold/wet weather the past 3 winters
our normal is like 41"s of measurable precipitation annually
those 3 years were well over 110"s to 200"s,
with a 25ft of snow accumulation
110+ days of snow, & another 50+ of atmospheric rivers of rain, crazy winters

but;
the only thing we have on propane now, is our Hot Water heater,
older unit still, 50-gal upright tank
it uses about 100 cu/ft 'a YEAR',
I have a smaller vessel/propane tank like a 120 cu/ft tank now too
it's filled now once a year
(120 cu/ft would be just a partial month prior, to the new electric HVAC unit)
for 2 baths/showers, dishwasher & 2 empty nesters Batchlors
me & my father & my dog (now pup Baron/Lab)

Only thing that sucks, about an electric HVAC split unit,
is when the power goes out
I need to plug in the generator, & maintain it,
mostly for the refer, or to get heat
or we just burn wood, in the wood stove, in the living room & cook on it too...
 
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Do you realize its quite easy to get an EPA license? I got mine 30+ years ago with minimum studying. Only studied for Type 1 and passed Type I & II. Did not pass Type III but Type II gets me to 50 ton units.

I don't think it has changed but maybe........
I went and got my EPA cert, and had a HVAC guy that was going to help me install the units, but he got married and I think maybe his boss found out he was moonlighting, so he backed out. I didn't want to try moving the units by myself, so ended up just hiring the install, which still worked out good compared to the prices some places were giving me for lower quality systems. My setup is natural gas, not propane. Not sure how the propane costs vs, Electric is in your area?
Because they are phasing out 410A systems next year, I wonder if there are any inventory clearance deals on the 410A systems?
 
Ok, update is due.
I decided to go with the propane furnace and separate A/C unit.

The information provided by not only members here, but on Pcar forum that I also belong to, overwhelmingly said “ heat pumps are not that good nor efficient in your geographical location “

This was the way I was leaning based upon my own research, but there is endless knowledge here that I respect. And it was getting a tad overwhelming for my feeble mind.

I already had a 500 gallon propane tank from my old pool heater. The propane company came out today….the darn thing is full ! I must have filled it before the heater died. So that was a very nice bonus. Propane is 1/3 the cost of fuel oil. The new furnace and A/C will use considerably less electricity than what I have now. So, that’s is a win. Plus, a farmer down the road wants my fuel oil (tank is 3/4 full) in return for 20 tons of crushed concrete for my driveway all spread and rolled.

Last but not least, all in all it leaves us enough leeway to get a whole house generator ! We get a lot of power disruptions and brownouts here.

It all gets done 10/29-30
 
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