Retro Fit Hydraulic Roller Lifters

[Sweet5ltr]

Sweet5ltr,
You know I am not trying to get the purist to convert to hydraulic roller. I am asking for those that run them to step up and let me know what type lifter they are running. It is simple I have done hydraulics, solids, and solid rollers but this build is going to be a HR. Later I will go with another fadish idea which is EFI. Guys, I want a stout street cruiser with good manners and dependability. Just about every new vehicle off the assembly line has hydraulic roller lifters not to mention the further back you the high horsepower factory stuff starting at the end of the 80's. I think that is a little more than a fad. Mainstream HR stuff showed up about the sametime as EFI, just saying.

I have a Z06 Corvette and built race SBF's; I know the limits of the Hyd. Roller Camshaft but it will not out-perform a solid lifter camshaft or solid roller in RPM Potential or overall power output. I agree with EFI; but not the camshaft. Needs much more duration IMO. I don't see you making the power you are looking for with that profile of camshaft and intake manifold design. I was referring to the "new fad" being in Big Block Mopars. Not overall. Good cam choice for a stock cruiser.. Not a 500ci stroker.. JMHO.

 

[robinsonwr]

I have a Z06 Corvette and built race SBF's; I know the limits of the Hyd. Roller Camshaft but it will not out-perform a solid lifter camshaft or solid roller in RPM Potential or overall power output. I agree with EFI; but not the camshaft. Needs much more duration IMO. I don't see you making the power you are looking for with that profile of camshaft and intake manifold design. I was referring to the "new fad" being in Big Block Mopars. Not overall. Good cam choice for a stock cruiser.. Not a 500ci stroker.. JMHO.

I understand the HR does not have the attributes for maximum performance. I want everyone to understand that is not the purpose for this build. A street cruiser with a little attitude. I will probably buy the Comp Cams 8921-16 lifters. I did not want a very noticeable choppy idle is the reason I chose the camshaft. My first choices were from the Xtreme line from Comp. The 106 lobe center was more than what I wanted. None of the Xtreme cams had the lift numbers I wanted which was over 600 with a 1.6 rocker. I appreciate your input but this build is a cruiser first.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Hey Robinsonwr,
I am the type who loves a radical idle and a less than smooth ride! So, I am biased towards the more performance oriented grinds. Should make plenty of power for your street cruiser and show stopper.

 

[robinsonwr]

Well I have had a few days to read and look at old magazines because of Hurricane Isaac. Interesting article in Hot Rod's Engines Winter 2002 magazine. They built a 440/447ci with Eddy heads, 10.25:1 compression, Eddy RPM dual plane, 750 cfm Speed Demon carb, and XE274 hydraulic camshaft. The signifcance is the cam has almost the same @ .050 and .100 less lift with 1.6 rockers but made a respectable 535hp @ 5300 rpm/585tq @ 4100rpm. I feel my combination with 11:1 compression, .100 more lift, 50+ more cubes, and 200 cfm more carb should be good for 15-40 more hp, right?

 

[Supershafts]

You can easily go more cam with that motors bottom end breathing and it will be streetable and make better power on a 108 or 106, id lose the idea of manifolds though.

You don't have to have a 700 lft 280 at 50 cam, but you can get into the 240 / 250 and still be a cruiser and use the 108 grinds.

and have more than 550 hp depending on the heads and exhaust.

I am speaking from experience with the trans deal, IF you truly want this ""I want a dependable street cruiser that can get down to business every now and then."" YOU ARE MAKING A GRAVE MISTAKE with tci and you should MOST definitely call the names i mentioned.


Now, i have many cars ranging from 1000+ to 450 hp, i use them all on the street the car (RR modified 6pk) that WRECKED both tci's at no more than 500hp, gave tci 2 chances with a measly DD with 500hp... and my motor showed me they are JUNK.
I have wrecked many other trans in various stages, the latest was my jeep which is 475/775hp and i strayed from my tried and true A&A and MS and listened to a friend swear the locals guys are better now and went with the local supposed best builder and guess what, i wasted yet again another couple thousand on my DD jeep and have a trans absorbing hp.

I am giving you a very good friendly warning, 2 tci trans in the same car broken... 1st one 2 weeks, 2nd made a month.
That is not reliable and im not the only one.

Use the internet for what it can help you with


.

 

[snakeoil24]

Rollers where around before flat tappets and are far more reliable than flat tappet cams. Airplane engines have used rollers since the 1920's. If you have problems with roller systems it is usually for three reasons. 1. inadequate oil supply at idle since most roller lifters rely on slinger oiling at idle. 2 Severe spring pressures. 3. Lifter bore cleanance issues or improper pin oiling supply " unbushed bores for lifters requiring bronze bushed bores. Also consider additives in modern oil do nothing to help protect modern cam systems.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Rollers where around before flat tappets and are far more reliable than flat tappet cams. Airplane engines have used rollers since the 1920's. If you have problems with roller systems it is usually for three reasons. 1. inadequate oil supply at idle since most roller lifters rely on slinger oiling at idle. 2 Severe spring pressures. 3. Lifter bore cleanance issues or improper pin oiling supply " unbushed bores for lifters requiring bronze bushed bores. Also consider additives in modern oil do nothing to help protect modern cam systems.

Most people who use Solid Roller cams are not looking at the .480 lift "street" grinds.. Spring pressures are going to easily surpass flat tappet territory in a heartbeat.. The Wedge' block was never designed with Roller Lifters in mind.. Inadequate oil supply was and still is their downfall in the Big Block Mopar. Most street cars are at idle quite a bit, don't you think? I stick with what is dependable and has been dependable for the past 40 years in BIG BLOCK MOPARS. Just wiped out a hydraulic roller lifter in a BBC and the cam went with it, when the roller busted in half. This is on a .500 lift camshaft with minimal spring pressure.

 

[Hemirunner]

You can argue against roller cams all you want, but I've run them on the street in all kinds of chrysler engines in solid roller and hydraulic roller configurations. They work and a roller of appropriate size will ALWAYS outperform a flat tappet cam. My current solid roller runs .750 lift and 900lbs of spring over the nose. No issues, lots of passes, lots of street miles and lots of idling.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

"Lots of idling and street miles" is not going from the trailer to the staging lanes in my opinion :eusa_think:

Never have met someone running a .700+ lift solid roller through downtown traffic or idling for two hours through the city during rush hour.. I don't hesitate with flat tappet camshafts. Solid Rollers can make some serious power, just not as reliable in my opinion for a street application in older blocks. Individual results will vary. Personally, don't think it is worth the additional cost to gain a few HP in a street application.

Comp Cams makes great camshafts in my opinion. Hope he makes the right choice, maybe going the custom route!

 

[Hemirunner]

Hardly going from the trailer to the staging lanes. Let's see.... Columbus Ohio to Indy to Milan Mich to PRP in Pennsylvania and back to Columbus. All in a week with a .750 lift solid street roller. It practically idled through Indy in 90 degree weather. I drive it everywhere. Drove it down to the local 1/8mi track, went 6.44 at 111 at 4250lbs and drove it home. I've been running this combo since 2009.

 

[snakeoil24]

Sweet your not wrong, and comp cams does make really good stuff.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Very nice road trip. I drive mine in downtown traffic every day i'm home.. Make multiple trips to Daytona throughout the year.. Gas is really the only thing that holds it back; getting less than 10MPG really cuts into the budget! Contemplating on driving it up and on the Power Tour.. Need a new center section with some 3.23's for that trip though.

 

[Supershafts]

You do know lots of idling is bad for any motor, even to warm it up idling is bad, you should never let any motor you like sit and idle, stuck in traffic shut it off.

I have been using rollers since 88 and they all have had more than 480 lft, even the hyd roller in my tow vehicle is beyond 520 lft, 1 motor has 450,000 miles on rollers.


Now they make rollers that have direct feed to the rollers since cam companies couldn't understand why someone would use a cam to make hp and tq in a better area and where they would get better mileage and then chose to drive around town with the motor barely off idle, as i could never understand it either.


Just had a outlaw 10.5 motor with a used up roller and scrape the cam, the only way to wreck the cam is to ignore the noise, and if you watch the roller will tell you when its time to do something, but unless you're running 1000 lbs or more then that wouldn't apply.
If you check your lash time to time it'll show and when you hear a squealing like a belt, you shut it off and change them all.

 

[car5683]

Just a suggestion, you should look at the Doug Herbert Website, they are probably one of the best priced suppliers of hydraulic roller cams and lifters. When looking for profiles use the BBC specs, and they will custom grind one for the BBM.
Looking at what you want to build I have a couple suggestions:
1. Grind H2, symmetric pattern: [email protected], 285 adv., 0.604 lift w/ 1.6 rr
2. Grind H7, offset pattern: 242/[email protected], 278/286 adv., 0.604/0.624 lift w/ 1.6 rr
These cams have a lot more duration at 0.50 than what you were looking at, which should greatly improve your power, but advertised duration small, keeping idle quality excellent.
This cam is not very big for your application, but I would still run on a 112 or 110 LCA, with an installed angle of 110/108 respectively. Plug this into your cam software and see what it thinks, just make sure to check using both @0.50 specs and adv. specs to get an idea of how it will work.
All in all, good bang for your buck. you should have a great STREET engine without the worry of wear due to flat tappets, or idle with a solid roller.
One thing to also think about is the distributor gear, normally bronze is the trick, but just found out about a billet steel gear made by crane, available from Summit racing. This is supposedly compatible with all cams, and should last a lot longer than the bronze.
Good Luck!!!

 

[rev.ronnie]

Do you have a part number for the PBM Pro Series HR lifters? I do not see a part # for big block mopar.

Sorry ,my mistake. I used Howard's street series on the last BBM. They worked well. The PBM pro series are the ones I use in Chevys.

http://www.howardscams.com/lifters/hydraulic-roller-lifters

 

[robinsonwr]

I bought the 8921-16 Comp Cam hydraulic roller lifters for my build. I wanted the Crane HR lifters but they are out of stock until December.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Call MRL performance and speak with Mike Liston. They sell some really nice retro fit roller lifters, either solid or hydraulic. They are reasonable and have features nobody else does for the price they offer. I've dealt with Mike before and he is as top shelf as they come.

Idling is bad for any motor? Somebody better tell that to OTR truckers who leave their **** on almost all the time when it's cold. Also, where do you think 90% of all cars on the road spend 90% or more of their time? Idling. I swear I think some people will say anything just to hear themselves talk or see their typed word.

 

[Supershafts]

Idling is bad for any motor? Somebody better tell that to OTR truckers who leave their **** on almost all the time when it's cold. Also, where do you think 90% of all cars on the road spend 90% or more of their time? Idling. I swear I think some people will say anything just to hear themselves talk or see their typed word.

You really are that person that loves to say anything to hear yourself, we aren't discussing diesels, and a gas motor doesn't do all that well idling and doesn't oil certain areas as well either................. Why flat cam motors need to be at 2000 or more breaking in, there is not enough oil at idle as holds true for other parts of the motor... So idling around a big roller is why people experienced issues with them before because people would idle them.....and why rollers now are made with oiling channels/direct feed holes..

Most all cars are built to be cruising at 1800 to 2500, they're optimal area, none are to be idling.

None of my stuff spends 90% of it's time idling.... not even damn near 10% of it's time is idling unless im stuck sitting in traffic of which why waste gas idling, i just shut it off..

Since you brought up diesels and again have no clue...

Facts - Most engine manufacturers recommend that diesel engines run/idle for no more than 3 minutes before driving.


Letting an engine idle actually does more damage to the engine than starting and stopping. Running an engine at low speed (idling) causes twice the wear on internal parts compared to driving at regular highway speeds, which can increase maintenance costs and shorten the life of the engine.

Lol i didn't say that... that's a combined statement from diesel manufactures

But let me go further for the uneducated on idling a diesel.

Fact - diesels make soot idling, not good to idle diesels............ Many diesels will idle up bringing them off idle if they idle more than 3 minutes, many will shut off....

Idling a diesel makes soot and varnish and hurts valves and ring seal....


Idling a car makes the same issues, and has other oiling related issues....

Idling ANYTHING is not good..

.

 

[Budnicks]

1st thing I would say is call a reputable camshaft mfgr. talk to the experts, tell them what gears, what trans, what converter, what heads, what induction system, what CI's, what heads, etc... I probably have a near 15 year old Crane Hyd. Roller custom grind roller from around 1997 & Crane retrofit Hyd. Roller lifters in my 383/479ci 6bbl Wedge, allot less camshaft than 0.620" lift {not going to go into my camshaft specifics, because your combo isn't what my camshaft combo will be good for anyway}, & ported RPM heads, Crane Super Gold 1.6 Roller Rockers, Smith Brothers custom length 3/8" push-rods, running on the street & occasional track time since 2005, no issues what so ever, I beat many "if not all" of the guys, who say it doesn't have enough camshaft, or HP/TQ, it's more than just the engine, or the camshaft or some dyno #'s {the right/proper camshaft, springs, retainers, locks, seals, size/style/length push-rod etc., for it's intended usage, is very important thou} or even the cylinder heads, but the cylinder heads are probably the most important part in the build, especially a stroker build, or even the exhaust choice {HP manifolds are HP/TQ killers on stroker engines, big time reversion, heat & exhaust flow issues}, it's all about the total car combo, build it how you want to build it, take all the information given & weight, all the pro/cons... Make sure the lifter bores are round & not the typical 150k miles, worn out 40+ year old ****, bore & bush them "if need be", before going to any type of roller camshaft Hyd. or Solid Roller lifter/camshaft, find a great machinist/engine guy check thoroughly, always have good HV oil pump & sufficient pan capacity/amount of oil, good oil pressure at idle & upper RPM's, good quality oil filters.... Good luck with your build, do your research/due diligence, have fun...

 

[rev.ronnie]

Off subject, but maybe useful since a lot of guys here have diesels..

I get a fair share if diesel heads in my shop for rebuilding and performance mods (fire rings, valve work ect.). Some of them are clean as a whistle, while others have half the port filled with sludgy carbon. Literally, I can barely get my thumb in the intake ports of some duramax heads. On some fords, I see random guides that are wiped out and excess carbon build.

The common denominator is always that the really bad ones have been allowed to idle excessively and "warmed up" for a long time. This new fuel is not helping.