Starter won't crank when hot.

[john.thompson068]

Today I drove the car and then came back to the garage to adjust the idle speed. While the car was sitting there idling waiting for me to finish hooking up the timing light, remove the air cleaner, adjust the idle and idle for a while in drive, the engine temp crept up to 230*. Afterward I turned the car off. Later I went to restart the car while the temp was still at 230* and the NAPA brand mini starter would barely crank. I retarded the timing from 13* to less and less timing, I hooked up my car battery with cables without the other car running, I tried it with the other car running, I removed the coil wire, and still the starter barely spins the motor. What is wrong with my starter and what should I do about this? There is no point to having a car that cannot start when it gets hot. And it already has a 20x 18 aluminum radiator, 18" MP Viscous fan, and radiator shroud. It runs between 160-180 when cruising around, but after cruising and then idling on a hot day temperatures easily go up to 210*-220* when sitting in traffic. The motor is your basic 550 hp pump gas 440 combo with Hooker headers.

 

[john.thompson068]

I'm already thinking the motor shouldn't be getting that hot. And that the best choice will be to upgrade to an electric fan. I plan on going this route anyway eventually. I believe an electric fan is a cleaner looking and more modern approach. I will have to start looking at an alternator upgrade kit like one of the ones from Mancini, and the best electric fan with the most CFM I can get for a 20x 18 radiator. And maybe a wrap around heat shield for the starter while I am at it. I'm estimating this project could cost $700. This is not a good time for this as I am en route to becoming homeless soon as it is anyway, but what is the point of having a car if you can't drive it. I just trust in Jesus, man. Let me know what you think about the electric fan approach and any recommendations.

 

[67 coronet]

hard too see in the pics.how big is the fan,how close to the radiator is it,and is there a clutch or flex fan?as far as the starter,some cases will expand when hot and couse the bearings to bind or flat out short out.you might want to pull it,and have it bench tested to check on amp draw.

 

[john.thompson068]

With an electric fan, could I expect engine temperature to stay at 180* all the time? The car starts no problem when only at those temperatures. Funny thing is, I don't ever remember this being a problem before because the car has always run real hot like this and it always started before. I swear it has only began to do this since pulling it out of storage last summer and trying to get it back to being a reliable drive again like it was for 6 straight years before I joined the Navy and went of to college after wards.

 

[john.thompson068]

hard too see in the pics.how big is the fan,how close to the radiator is it,and is there a clutch or flex fan?as far as the starter,some cases will expand when hot and couse the bearings to bind or flat out short out.you might want to pull it,and have it bench tested to check on amp draw.

The fan is an 18", and it is real close to the radiator. Without taking an actual measurement, it is probably like an inch or less from the rad. It uses a standard water pump and pulley, and I haven't done anything to alter where the fan sits in relation to the radiator, so it set up just like factory. It is not a flex fan. It is one of the viscous fans. I am wondering if maybe it is not engaging properly when hot, so I will proceed to test that this weekend. However, it is not like the fan is 40 years old. It is maybe 7 years old and real low mileage and I bought it brand new. So it being broken is not looking too likely at this point.

 

[67 coronet]

The fan is an 18", and it is real close to the radiator. Without taking an actual measurement, it is probably like an inch or less from the rad. It uses a standard water pump and pulley, and I haven't done anything to alter where the fan sits in relation to the radiator, so it set up just like factory. It is not a flex fan. It is one of the viscous fans. I am wondering if maybe it is not engaging properly when hot, so I will proceed to test that this weekend. However, it is not like the fan is 40 years old. It is maybe 7 years old and real low mileage and I bought it brand new. So it being broken is not looking too likely at this point.

was just woundering since fan air flow(or lack of)is what causes overheet without vehicle moving.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Today I drove the car and then came back to the garage to adjust the idle speed. While the car was sitting there idling waiting for me to finish hooking up the timing light, remove the air cleaner, adjust the idle and idle for a while in drive, the engine temp crept up to 230*. Afterward I turned the car off. Later I went to restart the car while the temp was still at 230* and the NAPA brand mini starter would barely crank. I retarded the timing from 13* to less and less timing, I hooked up my car battery with cables without the other car running, I tried it with the other car running, I removed the coil wire, and still the starter barely spins the motor. What is wrong with my starter and what should I do about this? There is no point to having a car that cannot start when it gets hot. And it already has a 20x 18 aluminum radiator, 18" MP Viscous fan, and radiator shroud. It runs between 160-180 when cruising around, but after cruising and then idling on a hot day temperatures easily go up to 210*-220* when sitting in traffic. The motor is your basic 550 hp pump gas 440 combo with Hooker headers.

Today I just had similar problems. I purchased a mini-starter this morning, 94 Dakota (typical rebuilt unit) and it turned over the engine fine during our camshaft break-in. When the car was 190 degrees afterwords, it had so much heat soak it wouldn't even budge the big block. It was returned immediately. I have 11.0:1CR and am running very similar power numbers. I ended up taking the mini starter off, and purchasing an original starter. Guess what? The original starter spun over the engine with ease, and cranked up first click of the key after I finished driving it. I have an electric fan, 1600CFM pusher and a mechanical HD fan with 160* thermostat. It ran up to 185* when breaking in the camshaft at 2,250rpm for 20 minutes, but only runs around 165* when driving. I would put a factory starter back on the car, and get that reliability back. Battery is located in the rear as well.

 

[john.thompson068]

Today I just had similar problems. I purchased a mini-starter this morning, 94 Dakota (typical rebuilt unit) and it turned over the engine fine during our camshaft break-in. When the car was 190 degrees afterwords, it had so much heat soak it wouldn't even budge the big block. It was returned immediately. I have 11.0:1CR and am running very similar power numbers. I ended up taking the mini starter off, and purchasing an original starter. Guess what? The original starter spun over the engine with ease, and cranked up first click of the key after I finished driving it. I have an electric fan, 1600CFM pusher and a mechanical HD fan with 160* thermostat. It ran up to 185* when breaking in the camshaft at 2,250rpm for 20 minutes, but only runs around 165* when driving. I would put a factory starter back on the car, and get that reliability back. Battery is located in the rear as well.

Umm. I thought the mini starter had more torque. My battery is out back also with huge welding cable for wire. I bought the mini starter to replace my original factory starter one day because of all the hype about how great they are. I want to hear more about a factory starter versus mini starter. It sounds promising. Simply replace the starter. I don't really care if my car likes to get all hot like that when idling as long as it starts. I really have no idea if an electric fan would make it run any cooler anyway. I have no experience with any of this stuff.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Umm. I thought the mini starter had more torque. My battery is out back also with huge welding cable for wire. I bought the mini starter to replace my original factory starter one day because of all the hype about how great they are. I want to hear more about a factory starter versus mini starter. It sounds promising. Simply replace the starter. I don't really care if my car likes to get all hot like that when idling as long as it starts. I really have no idea if an electric fan would make it run any cooler anyway. I have no experience with any of this stuff.

I run an electric fan, and it is wired into my MSD ignition power source which is operated by a HD toggle switch. It does let the car run much cooler, especially in heavy traffic. Like I said, it runs 165* around town and in heavy traffic.

I doubt the claims after my episode today. Dropping the header three times in two days, and switching out starters has taught me a lesson. I believed the hype, but if you can't properly turn over the car after the engine warms up; does it matter if it made twice the amount of torque? The factory starter spins over the 11.0:1 compression engine with minimal effort. Heat soak is the issue you are experiencing, and I was earlier this evening.

 

[tpodwdog]

.....chalk this up to just one more reasons i REFUSE to put headers on my car. they get too hot,,,and when things get hot,,,THEY EXPAND,,,and everything gets tighter.....and therein lies the problem....id bet good money that one or more of the header pipes is WAYYYY too close to the starter . you probably knew all this already tho ...!

 

[Sweet5ltr]

.....chalk this up to just one more reasons i REFUSE to put headers on my car. they get too hot,,,and when things get hot,,,THEY EXPAND,,,and everything gets tighter.....and therein lies the problem....id bet good money that one or more of the header pipes is WAYYYY too close to the starter . you probably knew all this already tho ...!

To be honest, the mini-starter had around the same clearance to the header as my factory starter. The mini-starter package, with it being nearly half the size, just cannot withstand the heat as well as the factory starter. I am for reliability, and for only a few pounds of weight savings; it isn't worth the risk in my opinion.

 

[70rr-brian]

Your fan looks buried in the shroud. I would think ideally there should be some of the fan blades, like the back 1/4" of the blades themselves should be exposed from the back of the shroud so it can throw the air over the entirety of the motor...kinda looks like your rig would force all the air into a small area versus....spray the motor with air if you will.

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

.....chalk this up to just one more reasons i REFUSE to put headers on my car. they get too hot,,,and when things get hot,,,THEY EXPAND,,,and everything gets tighter.....and therein lies the problem....id bet good money that one or more of the header pipes is WAYYYY too close to the starter . you probably knew all this already tho ...!

lmao

My headers are right next to the starter, never had an issue -original factory starter - love that whine. For insurance wrap it in some DEI heat wrap.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

lmao

My headers are right next to the starter, never had an issue -original factory starter - love that whine. For insurance wrap it in some DEI heat wrap.

I never had a single issue either with the original starter, other than it started to not engage when hot; but once engaged it spun the engine over with ease.

 

[wannadrag]

Bad starter or check a clean the battery cable connections.Battery cable heavy enough?

 

[john.thompson068]

Bad starter or check a clean the battery cable connections.Battery cable heavy enough?

The battery is new and the cables are huge 1/0 guage welding cable and the ring terminals were installed at a shop. Based on all of your input, I will go grab this factory rebuilt starter, part number P 3258, from Advance Auto and install it tonight. I guess it couldn't hurt to bad to try since it is only 54.99, and everyone seems to think the mini starter is the problem. If a mini starter could not even handle Sweet5ltr's cool running 440 with his electric fan, then I may as well give it a shot.

 

[john.thompson068]

I just went shopping and came back with this stuff. An original starter, DEI heat shield wrap, and some wire to secure the heat wrap in place. Hope it works. Total cost for this project is about $100 so if this works it will be a great investment. I can let you know by tomorrow night so check back.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

advance auto parts "world wide" starter? If so, great choice. Lifetime warranty! A starter heat shield is a good choice as well if you have the clearance for it. When is the last time you changed a starter in the car? It's honestly a two man job without a lift. One person manipulating the header, and the other performing a circus feat getting the factory one back in.

 

[500special]

I would be interested in your outcome as i have just purchased one of these "direct drive" Mini-starters, they need more available current especially hot vs. gear reduction oem...on my old poncho 400...which alslo love to melt starters I made a shield to keep that radiant heat off the new mini I installed ....been Ok since.
I think 230 degrees would not be unusual for a new rebuild, with that heat; high compression; tight engine and all we must deliver close to 300 amps to starter.
....if she does not crank after a shield ... voltage drop can be read during the hot issue...

 

[scotts74birds]

70rr-Brian is correct about the fan blade location. It should be at the rear of the shroud to create the proper "venturi-effect". Since it is past the tapered area of the shroud, my guess is that it is causing alot of turbulence, but not alot of flow. As far as the rad itself....I thought the small factory ones were 22", and the large factory ones were 26". But you say yours is 20"? Hmmm. Start with your cooling problem. As far as the starter, I had these issues on my 86 Z-28 with a Mcleod mini-starter and headers. I never solved them.