Starter won't crank when hot.

[john.thompson068]

Wow. I can definitely see how the mini starter may have issues cranking over my car and withstanding some extra heat. Just look at how small and weak looking it is compared to an original starter. I can see why the mini starter's case could expand and cause binding, or otherwise succumb to heat, and surely the motor inside the original starter can produce more torque. It is twice as big. Actually now that I compare the two, I wonder how the mini starter was ever able to turn my motor over at all. It looks like a motorcycle or 4 cylinder starter compared to the original.

The starter is a World Wide starter with the limited lifetime warranty. I am glad to hear you say that was a great choice because when I saw the Made in Mexico sticker I starter wondering if this was going to be a good choice or not. I have installed the mini starter several times when going through a series of transmission problems because of some lousy builders. It is a juggling act to put it in. I lay on my back and use one of my shins and knees to balance the header while getting the starter wired up and back in there. Once the juggling act is over, I can bring in the jack to hold the header up while I go about tightening it down.

 

[67 B-body]

.....chalk this up to just one more reasons i REFUSE to put headers on my car. they get too hot,,,and when things get hot,,,THEY EXPAND,,,and everything gets tighter.....and therein lies the problem....id bet good money that one or more of the header pipes is WAYYYY too close to the starter . you probably knew all this already tho ...!

Resistance is probably the root cause in this case......:angel10:

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

Resistance is futile

 

[john.thompson068]

70rr-Brian is correct about the fan blade location. It should be at the rear of the shroud to create the proper "venturi-effect". Since it is past the tapered area of the shroud, my guess is that it is causing alot of turbulence, but not alot of flow. As far as the rad itself....I thought the small factory ones were 22", and the large factory ones were 26". But you say yours is 20"? Hmmm. Start with your cooling problem. As far as the starter, I had these issues on my 86 Z-28 with a Mcleod mini-starter and headers. I never solved them.

The fan is half in and half out of the box. The blades come real close to the radiator. I have spent a lot of time running it without the shroud and putting the shroud on did not make any noticeable difference. It makes it look better though. I do not see how I could move the fan back away from the radiator unless I found a brand of fan with a shorter or almost non existent shaft. But the fan is a MP piece so you would think it would be right. The radiator is probably more like 24" across of you measure the tanks. The cooling fin area is 20x18. This would be about the biggest radiator that would fit if the battery were still in the stock location. I barely have room for my horns on the passenger side and the catch can. Also, the opening in the support is only 20" across. Would it be beneficial to have a radiator that is wider than the opening in the support and have that extra cooling area right up against the radiator support and not allowing any air to be pulled through that part of the radiator? I really don't know but I wouldn't think so.

Another reason I feel replacing the starter is a good idea is that the mini starter even struggles to start the car when it is at 160-180*. Like if I start it up and cruise to the nearby gas station, it will struggle a little bit to get the motor going again even if the motor is not that hot and it has not been soaking up heat for a long time, or even been cooling down for a while when parked. I don't remember the car ever having a hot start problem when I first put in the mini starter. It is like the problem has developed slowly over time and has finally gotten really noticeable. I was reading another discussion on the mini starter and how the armature can wear out from extended use in a motor that is overly advanced. I actually just googled mini starter problems and there was a lot of links I will browse through to see what they are about.

 

[john.thompson068]

Resistance is probably the root cause in this case......:angel10:

Well you need to start teaching me about this resistance. I have installed the biggest battery cables made, a brand new batter, upgraded the wiring of the charging cable by using an 8 guage wire soldiered directly into the main power wire under the dash, and crimped and soldered all of the connections. The only way I can think to upgrade the electrical system on the car as it relates to the battery, how it is charged, and how the battery gets its juice to the starter, would be to install one of the new high output alternators. Also, sometimes I hook my battery up to a tickle charger since it is rarely in use to keep it charged up and ready to go. I have two huge grounds from the motor and one from the battery that are installed to bare metal. I will eventually rewire the entire car, but the work I have already done would basically stay exactly the same.

 

[john.thompson068]

I would be interested in your outcome as i have just purchased one of these "direct drive" Mini-starters, they need more available current especially hot vs. gear reduction oem...on my old poncho 400...which alslo love to melt starters I made a shield to keep that radiant heat off the new mini I installed ....been Ok since.
I think 230 degrees would not be unusual for a new rebuild, with that heat; high compression; tight engine and all we must deliver close to 300 amps to starter.
....if she does not crank after a shield ... voltage drop can be read during the hot issue...

The car runs totally cool when it is cruising down the road, at around 160-180*. But in traffic it normally warms up to 210-220*. I don't think it would go any higher than 230* as it was idling for a while and seemed to have reached its peak. Eventually I think it would have cooled back down since when just idling without driving it can idle for like 20 or 30 minutes and stay at 160-180*. I have no problem with the car running at 220-230* when in traffic since it is not boiling over and the radiator is staying full of coolant. I will let it get real hot as soon as its back together and then I can shut it off and check to see if the fan clutch is engaging properly. Check back later to see what happens when I go to restart it when the temp is up. I should have test results posted by tomorrow night or Sunday.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

"Made in Mexico" isn't exactly what I was referring to as being the best quality of the starter, I was referring to the lifetime warranty which you and I will probably need! :toothy12:

Let us know how the starter change goes, and the mini starter was a breeze to install. The factory starter is what gave me some headaches but wasn't too much of an issue, but the increased clearance with the solid engine mounts also benefited the install.

I felt the same way about the starter size. I fell into the hype that the mini-starter that was designed to turn over a low compression small block, would spin over my high compression big block with ease. How naive could I be? :violent1:

 

[Sweet5ltr]

The car runs totally cool when it is cruising down the road, at around 160-180*. But in traffic it normally warms up to 210-220*. I don't think it would go any higher than 230* as it was idling for a while and seemed to have reached its peak. Eventually I think it would have cooled back down since when just idling without driving it can idle for like 20 or 30 minutes and stay at 160-180*. I have no problem with the car running at 220-230* when in traffic since it is not boiling over and the radiator is staying full of coolant. I will let it get real hot as soon as its back together and then I can shut it off and check to see if the fan clutch is engaging properly. Check back later to see what happens when I go to restart it when the temp is up. I should have test results posted by tomorrow night or Sunday.

This is a cooling issue. I had the same problems when running a single electric fan setup. The car would run cool when driving (obviously) but when sitting in traffic, the electric fan could not keep up with the cooling capacity required. 230* is well over the desired operating temperature and you should never be getting near 215*-220* without deciding where to pull over and shut down. You need additional cooling, and I would recommend an electric pusher fan in-front of the radiator for heavy traffic (that would be operated by a toggle). My car doesn't run over 180-185* in HEAVY traffic and uses a 65amp alternator to keep the voltage in check.

 

[tpodwdog]

Resistance is futile

good one Trekkie...:headbang:

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

good one Trekkie...:headbang:

You will be absorbed! It is the will of Landru

Showing my age now ****.

Need more Scalosian water

 

[67 B-body]

Treky..... LOL!

 

[67 B-body]

The collective.....

 

[67 B-body]

Well you need to start teaching me about this resistance. I have installed the biggest battery cables made, a brand new batter, upgraded the wiring of the charging cable by using an 8 guage wire soldiered directly into the main power wire under the dash, and crimped and soldered all of the connections. The only way I can think to upgrade the electrical system on the car as it relates to the battery, how it is charged, and how the battery gets its juice to the starter, would be to install one of the new high output alternators. Also, sometimes I hook my battery up to a tickle charger since it is rarely in use to keep it charged up and ready to go. I have two huge grounds from the motor and one from the battery that are installed to bare metal. I will eventually rewire the entire car, but the work I have already done would basically stay exactly the same.

It's probably the starter wiring itself,,, not your supply power.
Some manufactures use a cheap set of contacts that make when the "solenoid" portion engages. When this is a weak contact heat will increase the resistance of current through. This is how voltage / amperage gets to the brushes. :werd:

 

[john.thompson068]

It's in. I figured out how I was going to position the wrap, and then made an opening for the starter wire. First I stuck the wire through the wrap, and then stuck the wrap up in the car followed by the starter. Once it was in I bumped the stater over a few times to make sure it worked. This starter sounds much more powerful. I used a piece of wire to help secure the wrap. In a little while I will be able to fire it up and test it out, including the fan. Hopefully this works out. I will not be doing any road testing this weekend because my pickle fork split all three of my dust boots, which has cost me $20 to order, and the new ones won't arrive until Monday. Plus it seems like it might be raining all weekend.

 

[tpodwdog]

DAMMMMMMMMMMMMM... i hate it when i split my pickle fork !

 

[john.thompson068]

DAMMMMMMMMMMMMM... i hate it when i split my pickle fork !

I don't know if that would be considered an improperly placed modifier, but I could make it better. How's this: All three of my dust boots were split with my pickle fork....

LOL, anyway.

I started the car up and let it run. As the temperatures increased I shut it off and then restarted it. It definitely sounds like it has more power than the other starter because it is louder. After about 20 to 30 minutes, temperatures finally went over 180*. I eventually closed the hood to help things heat up. The starter continued to start the car right up right away unlike the mini starter. Once temperatures rose to 212 degrees, I did a series of 5 starts. On two of the five starts it fired instantly. On the other three the starter slowed down some and I heard three ruh ruh ruhs before the motor came to life. With the mini starter, it would have been much slower like ruuuuuhhh ruuuuhhhh ruuuhhhh ruuuuuhhhh ruuuuuuhhh before it started if at all. So this starter is obviously a big improvement over the mini starter. Oh, and for you perfectionists, I was later able to simply move the wire over to the left so that it is parallel with the edge of the starter.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

I don't know if that would be considered an improperly placed modifier, but I could make it better. How's this: All three of my dust boots were split with my pickle fork....

LOL, anyway.

I started the car up and let it run. As the temperatures increased I shut it off and then restarted it. It definitely sounds like it has more power than the other starter because it is louder. After about 20 to 30 minutes, temperatures finally went over 180*. I eventually closed the hood to help things heat up. The starter continued to start the car right up right away unlike the mini starter. Once temperatures rose to 212 degrees, I did a series of 5 starts. On two of the five starts it fired instantly. On the other three the starter slowed down some and I heard three ruh ruh ruhs before the motor came to life. With the mini starter, it would have been much slower like ruuuuuhhh ruuuuhhhh ruuuhhhh ruuuuuhhhh ruuuuuuhhh before it started if at all. So this starter is obviously a big improvement over the mini starter. Oh, and for you perfectionists, I was later able to simply move the wire over to the left so that it is parallel with the edge of the starter.

If you don't mind me asking, what thermostat are you running? 210* and above to me, seems like the engine is overheating. Why not go to a 160* Thermostat? Reading the Mopar Engine Manual will state that this is the best option to keep your Mopar cool! :headbang: If you kept the engine around 160*-180*, the starter would have no issue what-so-ever with turning the engine over and you would increase engine performance at the same time.

Very happy it worked out for you, now lets get your fuel cell issue sorted out and you'll be all set! Good garage time in this Florida weather today anyways..

 

[john.thompson068]

I don't remember what thermostat it is. I bought it too many years ago. But I think it is most likely a 160*. If not it is a 180*. Either way, I can't see that making a difference. Wait, how does that work? If it has a 180* thermostat, then it will open when the coolant inside the engine reaches 180* to let it cool off. So wouldn't that mean that the thermostat would just stay open all the time? Or is the other way? If you have a 160* thermostat, it will not let water into the motor until it has cooled off in the radiator down to 160*? If you don't mind explaining that, it would be a big help. I need to get back into the garage to fix something else with my 727 I recently posted about.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

I don't remember what thermostat it is. I bought it too many years ago. But I think it is most likely a 160*. If not it is a 180*. Either way, I can't see that making a difference. Wait, how does that work? If it has a 180* thermostat, then it will open when the coolant inside the engine reaches 180* to let it cool off. So wouldn't that mean that the thermostat would just stay open all the time? Or is the other way? If you have a 160* thermostat, it will not let water into the motor until it has cooled off in the radiator down to 160*? If you don't mind explaining that, it would be a big help. I need to get back into the garage to fix something else with my 727 I recently posted about.

Basically, it opens the thermostat at the water temperature of 160* and the engine runs around 160* at all times; other than very heavy traffic where it moves to 175*-180* at a maximum (thirty minutes at idle). You normally must order a 160* thermostat, and cannot pick up one locally. If you had a 160* thermostat, the engine should never reach 190*-200*. If it did, your cooling would be highly deficient for your application. 30 minute camshaft break in, the engine got up to 180*-185* and it was running 2,250RPM. The thermostat is going to open only when the water temperature is 160*. I'm sure it doesn't close often, if that's what your asking. With our previous 185* thermostat, the engine would nearly reach 195* prior to opening up (would quickly move back to 180*) but if it was heavy traffic, would creep up to 200*. I haven't noticed the cycles as often, but like I said, I am sure the thermostat is only closed for short duration. The engine runs fantastic with this thermostat, in comparison to the other unit. Very easy upgrade for a few dollars spent.