Swapping a Borgeson steering box in a 1970 Charger

[Kern Dog]

When the boxes are purchased from Bergman Auto Craft, I include directions and and FAQ page explaining this is normal.

Actually, there are no directions included in the kit. The directions are sent via a PDF or some other form. I never got a paper copy of instructions nor did another FBBO member that I did a Borgeson swap for last year.

 

[JG71B]

When the boxes are purchased from Bergman Auto Craft, I include directions and and FAQ page explaining this is normal. The box is too narrow to be lined up exactly without an offset. The coupler is designed to articulate and plunge. The critical thing is the position of the pitman which has nothing to do with the housing being on a slight angle. Some mopar applications were not straight on either which is why the coupler articulates in the first place.

Wasn't aware of that, thanks!

 

[JG71B]

The factory box sat at the same angle. It's just that the Borgeson box is a lot smaller so the angle is more noticeable in the void where the original box once sat.

There was no noticeable difference driving the car with the Borgeson box on the angle or with it aligned. It was just my OCD needing it straight.

Well, now that you've "triggered" MY ocd, I have to fight with myself to leave it alone! Thanks! (Sarcasticly speaking) lol

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

Well, now that you've "triggered" MY ocd, I have to fight with myself to leave it alone! Thanks! (Sarcasticly speaking) lol

This is NOT my kit.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

On the 0-100 scale it's about a 35? Wow, that surprises me. Bergman had said it's in between FF Stage 2 and 3 without Fast Ratio arms, but he also said it wasn't as responsive as his Acura and more like his Ford F150. Do you think it feels more responsive than an F150 steering? I've driven my dad's 10 yr old F150 and that thing is numb with no feel. I think I'm hearing that your feedback is with your 18" wheels and this box it's way better than that, but much easier than you expected as well.

Re-visiting this thread to provide some steering response hands on assessment since I had KD install a Borgeson in my 68 Satellite several months back.

I've only had time for 3 short drives and KD's estimate of 35 out of 100 for steering effort is about right. Before I had FF Stage 2 without Fast Ratio arms and the Borgeson effort to me is between FF stage 1 and FF stage 2. My stage 2 was a bit heavier, which I liked, just didn't like the dead spot in the center. I also ran the FF Stage 2 with fast ratio arms for a bit and at first I liked it (MUCH heavier steering than without the fast ratio arms). Then I did a few road course days at willow springs and the heavy steering got annoying back and forth around the tight turns. I then started noticing on freeway onramps and offramps that the steering was a bit twitchy and overly sensitive. We may be splitting hairs here, but I then went back to FF stage 2 without the fast ratio arms and overall enjoyed that more than with the fast ratio arms for street driving and a re-visit to Willow Springs the next year. Now I've got the Borgeson. It's very predictable and no dead spot in the center. Lighter than the FF stage 2 and to be honest, I wish the feel was a bit heavier. I have one more thing to try - I'm swapping in a smaller diameter steering wheel to see if that helps. As of now, it's the best steering I've had in this car.

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

Re-visiting this thread to provide some steering response hands on assessment since I had KD install a Borgeson in my 68 Satellite several months back.

I've only had time for 3 short drives and KD's estimate of 35 out of 100 for steering effort is about right. Before I had FF Stage 2 without Fast Ratio arms and the Borgeson effort to me is between FF stage 1 and FF stage 2. My stage 2 was a bit heavier, which I liked, just didn't like the dead spot in the center. I also ran the FF Stage 2 with fast ratio arms for a bit and at first I liked it (MUCH heavier steering than without the fast ratio arms). Then I did a few road course days at willow springs and the heavy steering got annoying back and forth around the tight turns. I then started noticing on freeway onramps and offramps that the steering was a bit twitchy and overly sensitive. We may be splitting hairs here, but I then went back to FF stage 2 without the fast ratio arms and overall enjoyed that more than with the fast ratio arms for street driving and a re-visit to Willow Springs the next year. Now I've got the Borgeson. It's very predictable and no dead spot in the center. Lighter than the FF stage 2 and to be honest, I wish the feel was a bit heavier. I have one more thing to try - I'm swapping in a smaller diameter steering wheel to see if that helps. As of now, it's the best steering I've had in this car.

you can add a shim to your pump. Also what are your alignment specs and wheel/size backspace. So many things affect steering effort.

 

[Kern Dog]

The NASCAR Mopars supposedly ran a 20 to 1 ratio. This makes sense because they were not making turns with a great steering angle so the wheel wasn't getting turned very far. A tighter ratio at high speeds would seem dangerous. I'll bet that the Fast Ratio arms are great for autocross where you're sawing the wheel back and forth a LOT.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

you can add a shim to your pump. Also what are your alignment specs and wheel/size backspace. So many things affect steering effort.

fronts are 215/70/15 on 7 inch wheels with 4" backspace.
+4.5 deg caster
-1 deg camber
1/16" toe in

Thanks for the shim suggestion. Where do I get a shim and where to install? Is it just a washer? Any info posted somewhere with a diagram?

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

The NASCAR Mopars supposedly ran a 20 to 1 ratio. This makes sense because they were not making turns with a great steering angle so the wheel wasn't getting turned very far. A tighter ratio at high speeds would seem dangerous. I'll bet that the Fast Ratio arms are great for autocross where you're sawing the wheel back and forth a LOT.

The Fast ratio arms in autocross would be quite the workout with the heavy feel, but for sweeping turns at moderate speed I liked them.

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

fronts are 215/70/15 on 7 inch wheels with 4" backspace.
+4.5 deg caster
-1 deg camber
1/16" toe in

Thanks for the shim suggestion. Where do I get a shim and where to install? Is it just a washer? Any info posted somewhere with a diagram?

That explains the ease of steering. Tiny tires and not a ton of caster. 8 degrees caster and 275 or wider tires make a difference. Check the old mopar action article "Pumping it down" we have shim kits in stock on the site.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

That explains the ease of steering. Tiny tires and not a ton of caster. 8 degrees caster and 275 or wider tires make a difference. Check the old mopar action article "Pumping it down" we have shim kits in stock on the site.

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/MoparAction/PumpItDown.pdf

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

That explains the ease of steering. Tiny tires and not a ton of caster. 8 degrees caster and 275 or wider tires make a difference. Check the old mopar action article "Pumping it down" we have shim kits in stock on the site.

thanks. Yes, tires are narrow and have considered going to 245/60/15.
+8 deg caster not possible on this car with Firm Feel UCA's. The most I've gotten is + 5 deg, but +4.5 deg is much higher than stock factory settings.

Any downside to adding a shim to the pump with the Borgeson box? They like higher pressure, so no more than a single shim, correct?

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

thanks. Yes, tires are narrow and have considered going to 245/60/15.
+8 deg caster not possible on this car with Firm Feel UCA's. The most I've gotten is + 5 deg, but +4.5 deg is much higher than stock factory settings.

Any downside to adding a shim to the pump with the Borgeson box? They like higher pressure, so no more than a single shim, correct?

You are limited with 15" tires unfortunately. Our upper arms allow much more caster, easier alignment and better camber gain due to the taller ball joint. You'll know if you've gone too far, that's why I suggest 1 shim.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

You are limited with 15" tires unfortunately. Our upper arms allow much more caster, easier alignment and better camber gain due to the taller ball joint. You'll know if you've gone too far, that's why I suggest 1 shim.

thanks for your always quick responses and for supporting our hobby on this site!

 

[Kern Dog]

fronts are 215/70/15 on 7 inch wheels with 4" backspace.
+4.5 deg caster
-1 deg camber
1/16" toe in

Thanks for the shim suggestion. Where do I get a shim and where to install? Is it just a washer? Any info posted somewhere with a diagram?

I have at least 10 Saginaw steering pumps here that I can strip for parts, including shims.
Here are what they look like:

With a stock Mopar steering box, many people found .100 to .125 thick to be where the steering effort started to struggle.
It is a messy process since every time you add or remove shins the pump gets drained.

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

You can get the shim kits on Amazon as well. Just finished up an install, have yet to drive it, too much rain here.