The Great “Matching Numbers” debate So what say you?

[440 PHIXX]

Not much to debate really. Numbers matching drivetrain is a big value add.
My 440 and 727 is from a 1973 something rather so it will detract from the price should I try sell it in the future…. which I won’t!

That’s why the date code cast into the block has become important. I know of several cars that were sold in the 80’s, that had a different block, and now have a matching stamp. Btw, the casting date can and has been altered to reflect a “correct” date.

 

[Runcharger]

It can be a bit of a curse owning a matching #'s car. All us stock type guys aspire to one but if you beat on them correctly it is a bit of a worry that you might damage it. I'm not a guy that worries about the correct date code on the exhaust manifold nuts either but I can respect those type of guys dedication.
Funny thing is though when people see a nicely restored car with all the correct parts and codes sell for a certain figure, they just know that their cobbled together car of varied origin must be worth the same or perhaps more.
My opinion is that we need all the old Mopars on the road we can get, no matter what the condition.

 

[toolmanmike]

Matching numbers? Yep. It means a lot more on a car with prominence. Not so much on my 70 318 Swinger. "Original drivetrain" is what I prefer to call it.

 

[Sahara]

Matching numbers? Yep. It means a lot more on a car with prominence. Not so much on my 70 318 Swinger. "Original drivetrain" is what I prefer to call it.

View attachment 1216981

That’s a sweet car! Love the stance.

 

[moparedtn]

Not much to debate really. Numbers matching drivetrain is a big value add.
My 440 and 727 is from a 1973 something rather so it will detract from the price should I try sell it in the future…. which I won’t!

Yeah, same here.
Not much original (and certainly not numbers-matching) on Fred - but he is an original GTX.

I'm happy with all that, doesn't bother me he's not N.M. - but by the same token, I understand
that he's not worth as much on the market as a comparable model in comparable condition that IS N.M.
Again, doesn't matter what anyone wants or feels about the subject - it just is.
Never found it much use to argue with tangible facts - that's illogical.

 

[440 PHIXX]

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1969-plymouth-satellite-6/

Definitely not matching numbers.

 

[dadsbee]

Btw, the casting date can and has been altered to reflect a “correct” date.

Amazing what a guy can do with a grinder, cast rod in an arc welder and a sand blaster !

 

[Ron H]

IMO, #’s matching has its big appeal for certain cars usually rare production and BB. A Hemi, a 440/6, and other most desirable models from Ford/GM. My brother had a ’69 GTO (not Judge) with Ram Air IV/4 sp…rare…where I’d find a #’s mate being a big deal. A SB chev, mopar, or Ford…can’t find an original mate meaning much. With SB’s don’t see the big deal; that’s just MO. The last two cars I restored involved some cloning, the ’72 Cutlass vert appearing as a 442. My ’63 Fury has a number of mod’s but nothing that would be non-reversible for someone wanting a bone-stock old ride. It drives/handles/stops better than it did off the assembly line and this means a lot to me. Some are purists down to the proper location of crayon markings; more trailer queens…if that’s what someone wants. All in all, unless it is some unique-rare car, matching #’s isn’t a thing with me.

 

[451Mopar]

Numbers matching cars almost always price higher than a similar non-numbers matching cars when talking about original and restored to original cars, could add lightly modified too?
On cars modified with a bunch of aftermarket parts, the numbers matching depends on the buyer. For a restorer, it will cost them money to undo all the modifications, but a gear head will see the performance increase as value so it might be a wash on value?
The numbers matching thing really was hot in the 1990's when prices really exploded on the high end, lower production number cars.
In higher production number cars with /6 or 318 engines the numbers matching was not a big deal.

Think of all the 20-25 year old cars built in 1997 to 2002, and ask if you care if they are numbers matching? Might make a difference on a Viper or Prowler, not so much on a neon or minivan.

So for numbers matching to really matter, you need a low/limited production car (supply) that is wanted by many people (demand).

An example sitting in the garage. Numbers Matching 1969 Coronet 500 with stock original 318 2-bbl, 904 trans, small rear end (not 8-3/4")
Car is getting built 360 with 518 and 8-3/4" rear. Is it worth more or less with the drivetrain swap?
To me it don't matter, not selling the car.

 

[451Mopar]

Got me thinking of the other side.
I have a 1 of 99 1969 Coronet Convertible 440 R/T 4-speed.
Bought it non-numbers matching, but with near correct drivetrain from a 1970 GTX which hurt its value in my favor buying it. I likely paid $10K + less than if it was numbers matching. I sold the engine and trans, then build a 1969 date code 440 into a 505" stroker backed with a 5-speed. Even added A/C and disc brakes. The purists are likely screaming now, but it is still better (for me) than when I got it, and again not selling, wait till I die and ask the kids.

 

[70chall440]

I will be building a 71 Charger soon, it is originally a 318 AT bench seat B5 in/out car. I am going to put a 5.7 and a TKX with buckets, a buddy seat, air grabber hood, etc. in/on it oh and I am going rebadge it to a Superbee (because I can). I am quite certain it will be worth far more when I am done than had I "restored" it... just saying.

 

[F4R/T]

It is what it is... it’s what you want to make of it. Folks define numbers matching many ways. The correct driveline is a biggie, then you look at all the goodies that go with it. Dist., Carb., wiper motor , starter, blower motor, etc. I’m doin my RT to be as close as humanly possible to new 1970. It’s a correct car but I just want to experience it like it was new. I do prefer to keep a numbers car together even a small block car or slant six. My RT is as correct as I can make it. These cars weren’t meant to be here this long, we have out lasted many of them so what can we expect! It’s your car not mine... Just keep it all Mopar!

 

[GetX'd]

When I bought my very first car in 1971 - I knew nothing of matching # cars. It was a 68 GTX and right in the heart of the muscle car era when everybody did whatever they did with their cars and for the most part it was ok. Hemis, Six Paks, the KR 500 Shelby and Boss 429s were royalty. Mine was only a few years old and nothing was changed and it was the only car I ever wanted. Cost me $1100. I don’t really recall anyone bringing up the matching/originality anything issue - I guess because none of them were very old. Well as time progressed it still never meant much to me. I owned that car as some of you may know for 48 years - just sold it a couple years ago. What I changed was the hood - to a six pack hood and put an original six pac set on her. Both off the same 69 Runner. A few other things like wheels and tires but never anything that in my view or what I understood changed the #s thing. I blew the engine 3 times (rod bearings only) but never changed any part of the drive train or parts of the car that I understood to be #s. As time went on people - in my opinion started to inflate the #s thing to a broader and broader spectrum which seemed ridiculous to me. I cared less about it because of that. I took it as it was being done to further rarify the cars and inflate this mysterious value thing. When I sold my car I sold it as numbers matching - but sold it way under market to one of my closest friends back home that knew everything about that car from 1971 to present and there was simply no other car on the planet he had ever coveted like the X. He shows it as a numbers matching car, it was appraised as such for insurance purposes and I still say it is and frankly don’t give two shits about what anyone else says or opines on in that regard. The cars had 3 owners. I was a change agent for what I stated. Nothing else matters. It is what it is. By the way I changed the oil a few times too ……

 

[diesel_lv]

Just an opinion. If you are worried about numbers matching, you're an investor no matter what you think. If you don't care, then you like the cars n just want to enjoy them.

 

[glenns hc]

Just an opinion. If you are worried about numbers matching, you're an investor no matter what you think. If you don't care, then you like the cars n just want to enjoy them.

Have to disagree with you . Perhaps we can leave out the word “worried” the reason I disagree with you for the most part at least from my point of view was stated in the last paragraph of my post . However there are a few that are just investors and base their purchase solely on numbers matching, I I think that putting a blanket coverage statement on the folks that do care about numbers matching is Not accurate there are plenty of people out there that like their numbers matching cars that you enjoy them and drive them plenty I am one of them

 

[dadsbee]

I think that putting a blanket coverage statement on the folks that do care about numbers matching is Not accurate there are plenty of people out there that like their numbers matching cars that you enjoy them and drive them plenty I am one of them

Interestingly enough, we haven't seen any pictures of said cars...

 

[glenns hc]

Interestingly enough, we haven't seen any pictures of said cars...

And why would I need to post them?

 

[dadsbee]

Wow, you're gonna fit right in here...

 

[fine69]

Wow, you're gonna fit right in here...

Hahaha!

 

[Cojohnso1]

Personally? I'm not interested in targeting numbers matching cars. I would rather save up front costs for build options. In the late 70s when I was a high schooler? This was not an issue. The Muscle cars were then 10+ years old. The only cars a working teen/20 year old could afford? The richer kids drove the late 70s Trans Ams and such. My '66 GTO 389 4-speed terrorized them. And my work on that car was only for more performance.

This numbers matching. Investment ownership completely misses the point of that era in my opinion.