The Great “Matching Numbers” debate So what say you?

[chtampa]

If you have to true the block surface of a 383, the numbers get cut away on the right side.

 

[Thunderlugs]

Have mine 46 years. Was a roller, original motor and trans long gone,but the shrapnel holes remained from exploded flywheel, (badge of honor) A Real Hemi equipped car with a 4 speed, sold new Mr Norms, correct numbers, fender tag , bla bla bla. I have never passed it off as a matching numbers car, just as a real Hemi. The value is, what it is , with the modifications I selected,cam, headers, compression,carburation. It's a pleasure to drive, but also a challenge to drive. If I had it to do over, I would build a pure stock version, if for any reason, easier driveability. On second thought..... Nah, F...k it! I wouldn't change a thing!!

 

[Nevada dan]

The coronet was a 318 much better improvement IMO , the roadrunner is numbers matching but that’s not stopping me from making it the way I like, as for the purists they’re getting smaller as they are dying off , nothing against them I’m just glad to have what I got

 

[AR67GTX]

In the crazy Corvette world (I’m sorry to talk about them on a Mopar forum but no one goes more crazy over this stuff than they do), the term “matching numbers” has become red flag because so many of them advertised this way are really correct date code range blocks, but re-stamped, non-original motors that are passed off as the real born-with motors. So the experienced guys scoff at the term “matching numbers” as something to instantly beware of. The smart ones want to see actual providence such as full owner history and testimony on the engines originality and an NCRS-expienced expert stamp pad verification that the engine is the actual “born with”, stamped by GM motor before laying down big bucks. But even NCRS will not judge or declare a cars motor as original.

 

[440 PHIXX]

In the crazy Corvette world (I’m sorry to talk about them on a Mopar forum but no one goes more crazy over this stuff than they do), the term “matching numbers” has become red flag because so many of them advertised this way are really correct date code range blocks, but re-stamped, non-original motors that are passed off as the real born-with motors. So the experienced guys scoff at the term “matching numbers” as something to instantly beware of. The smart ones want to see actual providence such as full owner history and testimony on the engines originality and an NCRS-expienced expert stamp pad verification that the engine is the actual “born with”, stamped by GM motor before laying down big bucks. But even NCRS will not judge or declare a cars motor as original.

I agree with the Corvette analogy. That’s where it all started back in the late 70’s. But original owner can’t even verify the block. Anyone can stamp a date coded block.

You did state that in your last sentence.

 

[glenns hc]

Have mine 46 years. Was a roller, original motor and trans long gone,but the shrapnel holes remained from exploded flywheel, (badge of honor) A Real Hemi equipped car with a 4 speed, sold new Mr Norms, correct numbers, fender tag , bla bla bla. I have never passed it off as a matching numbers car, just as a real Hemi. The value is, what it is , with the modifications I selected,cam, headers, compression,carburation. It's a pleasure to drive, but also a challenge to drive. If I had it to do over, I would build a pure stock version, if for any reason, easier driveability. On second thought..... Nah, F...k it! I wouldn't change a thing!!

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That’s mint!!!!!

 

[64BEL]

Have mine 46 years. Was a roller, original motor and trans long gone,but the shrapnel holes remained from exploded flywheel, (badge of honor) A Real Hemi equipped car with a 4 speed, sold new Mr Norms, correct numbers, fender tag , bla bla bla. I have never passed it off as a matching numbers car, just as a real Hemi. The value is, what it is , with the modifications I selected,cam, headers, compression,carburation. It's a pleasure to drive, but also a challenge to drive. If I had it to do over, I would build a pure stock version, if for any reason, easier driveability. On second thought..... Nah, F...k it! I wouldn't change a thing!!

View attachment 1219366 View attachment 1219372 View attachment 1219382

A blast to ride in and it sounds awesome! Makes me want to straight pipe mine, but I've resisted that urge so far.

 

[1STMP]

As one who's first Mopar is a hodge podge
pile of parts, numbers matching has no
meaning or ultimate goal. I understand the
concept full well, and those cars, on an
average are worth more money.
What I've got, is my vision as to how the
build comes together. Like it or not, it's
mine. You're going to frown on on some
things, and be awed by others. But whatever
I do, it becomes unique, and it's worth
whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
So it becomes numbers matching for me
as I've incorporated changes (given current
technologies) that makes it better than
what the factory, at the time,, produced..
4 wheel disc brakes, fuel injection, better
electronics.. It becomes a 1 of 1. From
what I've built, I take more pride.
And I won't be afraid to drive it.
The lucky few that have a numbers matching
car that is 50+ years old should do everything
in their power to keep them that way.
Case in point.....

 

[MoparGuy68]

I have a numbers matching engine/trans Super Bee. It was that, along with being an original N96 and GY3 car that motivated me to buy it. I wanted a real factory built vintage Mopar big block muscle car.

Two years later, I decided I wanted a Mopar muscle car that I could drive daily (practically & reliably), that has comfortable seats, A/C and I don’t have to constantly work on it. So I bought a modern V8 equipped Challenger.

 

[451Mopar]

What are the current collector car pronouns now?
Seems "Numbers Matching" expectations have changed over time.

I seem to recall when it was "Original Numbers Matching" for more of a survivor type car with original sheet metal, suspension, rims, glass?
Now it seems there are "Numbers Matching" cars built from a drive train and vin tag, and almost no original sheet metal or other parts.
Then there is "Restored to Original numbers matching", "Over Restored numbers matching", "Day 2 numbers matching", "Tribute numbers matching?", and so on...

 

[barbee6043]

I admit I did not read the pages here. My take is few of these old "muscle" cars retained their oem drivetrain that long. Over the decades I have owned many many dozen and few had their original eng or trans.
I love survivors but even fewer of those exist in HP forms.
Some cars are worth too many $$$$ now day for me to own, drive and enjoy them, so I just build what I want from just an old Mopar!

 

[AR67GTX]

I agree with the Corvette analogy. That’s where it all started back in the late 70’s. But original owner can’t even verify the block. Anyone can stamp a date coded block.

You did state that in your last sentence.

Actually date codes in Chevy blocks are cast into engine blocks. But there have been several instances uncovered where the cast in date code and even the block ID numbers were carefully ground off and equally carefully replaced with new codes in JB Weld. One guy thought he had an original or at least correct 427 in his car only to discover it was a 396 low-hp engine block.

 

[440 PHIXX]

Actually date codes in Chevy blocks are cast into engine blocks. But there have been several instances uncovered where the cast in date code and even the block ID numbers were carefully ground off and equally carefully replaced with new codes in JB Weld. One guy thought he had an original or at least correct 427 in his car only to discover it was a 396 low-hp engine block.

Yeah. I understand. I was talking about stamping a block with a date code in the right vicinity. And yes, many blocks have had the cast in date code altered to match.

 

[HALIFAXHOPS]

I get the matching numbers. I deal with members that do it all the time everything in a distributor has to be 100% correct. Nice to have the cars around for reference personally. There are a few "real survivors" around here I look at on ocassion for reference. Me personally I can never afford one.

 

[440 PHIXX]

To me a “survivor” is a car in it’s 3rd, maybe 4th engine block. Had 6 or more previous owners. And is still here today after all of it’s use and abuse. These are the cars that all the folklore is about. Not some garage kept 1 or two owner, original paint car with an engine that has never been rebuilt and a date coded windshield washer pump. I mean... who wants a 50 yo virgin?

 

[joemish]

Then there are some outliers like me maybe, who just want to own some of these cars for a few years and then resell to get something different. My motivation isn't for profit. It's to drive/own several of these cars. If I could afford it, I would have kept everyone that I've owned in the past 10 plus years. But I get a kick out of having something different. Part of that is because I'm not emotionally attached to a car that I've had for decades. Although I do have a GN that I bought in the early 90's still. But that's because the kids don't want me to let it go. In the past 10 years I've had a 70 RT with 23K (even met original owner), 71 Shaker Chall RT that I've owned twice!, 2 Magnum SRT8's which are a lot of fun, etc. Even bought my SRT4 I bought new from my son, so we're keeping it in the family. During this time, had a couple of newer 5.0's and a mazdaspeed3. After typing this I feel kind of dumb for going through so many cars. But point is, really just want to drive different cars. Even with the numbers cars, I drove them to every car show around, couldn't care less about mileage. Current 71 440-6 GTX will get driven everywhere, but I'll probably only keep it for 2-3 years. I do avoid driving in crap weather because I hate getting back under the hood to clean up!

look me up when you are gonna dump the '71

 

[Mr. Mike]

Used to run with a guy here in PA some might recognize as never going to a meet in a Mopar. We visited the owner of an all original 71 Hemi 'Cuda doing an engine out paint resto.
What put me off numbers matching cars was the eyebolts embedded in the floor to slow theives.
I know a lot of guys sold their rides when they couldn't afford replacement insurance premiums.

 

[RemCharger]

Used to run with a guy here in PA some might recognize as never going to a meet in a Mopar. We visited the owner of an all original 71 Hemi 'Cuda doing an engine out paint resto.
What put me off numbers matching cars was the eyebolts embedded in the floor to slow theives.
I know a lot of guys sold their rides when they couldn't afford replacement insurance premiums.

*picks up phone*
"Hey its Ted. Please replace my original survivor 71 Hemi Cuda, someone stole.."
*click*

 

[Slant 6 Music]

look me up when you are gonna dump the '71

Funny you use that term! I don't have the money or facilities to have several cars at once. On newer cars, I viewed them as a rental. On the vintage Mopars, I just want to own different models. If I could afford to keep them all, I would have for sure. My goal is to hopefully not lose money, because I always end up fixing stuff that I didn't anticipate when I bought it and I'm picky. But sure, if or when I dump it, I'll keep you in mind.

 

[Slant 6 Music]

To me a “survivor” is a car in it’s 3rd, maybe 4th engine block. Had 6 or more previous owners. And is still here today after all of it’s use and abuse. These are the cars that all the folklore is about. Not some garage kept 1 or two owner, original paint car with an engine that has never been rebuilt and a date coded windshield washer pump. I mean... who wants a 50 yo virgin?

True dat!