Torsion removal

[twecomm]

Bad idea.. Just replace the T bars as they are likely shot after supporting the car all theses years. It will make a difference, without attempts to re-invent the wheel.

 

[j-c-c-62]

I reckon the strut rod on its own will actually be trying to force the lca off the k frame. The factory design has the strut rod pulling on the front of the lca at one end while the torsion bar pushes on the lca at the other end. Take the torsion bar away and the strut rod will be acting like a lever.

To the OP, put your suspension together with no torsion bar and leave the nut off the lca pin. Tighten the strut rod fully. Bounce the car up and down a few times. See what happens.

You don't need to have "qualifications" like Bob Renton to see that this is a disaster waiting to happen.

Just my opinion of course...

The separation of the LCA rearward from its pivot point is mostly because of the reversing lever action of the brake strut mounting and only at play when car is moving backwards, like backing up or doing a 180 degree spin with locked brakes at speed. Normal forces at the LCA pivot when driving are forward onto the pin, not off. I personally would never operate an OEM Mopar TB suspension without a TB to properly retain this mounting point.

The TB itself mainly works only as a stop in this application, it only offers radial restraint, a small wire spring clip prevents the TB from aft movement. This was not an area apparently of high concern for Mopar engineers, which I do not disagree with.

Additionally, just to be clear, no part of a typical TB here is normally considered unsprung weight.

 

[j-c-c-62]

Just so happens that there is a gentleman with a very favorable reputation that does nothing but Mopar. I put the same question to him as well. and he said it should. I again reflect on the bushing area and it pulling off there.

Don't be coy, who is the "gentleman"?

 

[Doorkicker]

Playing with the idea of taking the torsion bars out, leaving them out and stepping over to Koni Coil overs on the front. What I am seriously concerned about is will the lower control arms stay in place, or dislocate themselves from their pivots?

To cut to the core of your question... the short answer is "yes", it will come out, eventually, without the TB in place.

The LCA bushing for the pin does not have the ability to address lateral pressure for extended periods. Although some may disagree and note the small retention clip at the rear of the TB as evidence to the resistance of the pin to move rearward, they may be missing the fact the static load alone on the TB is more than adequate to retain the LCA pin.

On a broader note, the coilover alone will not likely get you what you're looking for. Yes, you'll get more space with the TBs gone... for headers and will certainly make working on it a little easier, but it's very unlikely you'll see changes in handling beyond what a quality shock, upgraded bushings, a plated LCA, and a decent, correctly sized TB will get you. This is why serious upgrades include replacing the k-member and introducing new shock towers (i.e., Q1).

If the goal includes primarily getting space under the car, which I can respect, I recommend removing the TB's, cleaning them thoroughly, greasing appropriately, and just doing good maintenance on them so that when work is needed in that area, just yank them out. Takes me less than 5 minutes to remove both TBs in my car. It's just not a consideration for me anymore because it's so easy. And yes, I drive my car a lot.

P.S. When I say I remove my TBs.. I mean disconnect from the LCA and slide to the rear. I do not extract them from the cross member. That boot is just too much of a bear to deal with.

 

[Shorty Thompson]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink....
I've stated not just opinions but facts. The lower control arms have but two ways to isolate metal to metal contact at the mounting points. Rubber and then some type of plastic whether it is urethane/polyurethane/polygraphite/delrin or whatever. There is no Feel Firm but there is Firm Feel Inc, a company in Washington state that caters to the Mopar suspension systems. They may sell control arms but they will be adaptations of what Ma Mopar had originally, not anything coil over. They know that coil over stuff may be fine with a bunch of additional reinforcements but they are a durability downgrade when compared to the original design.
Nothing will compare to the knowledge of the members on this site. Farcebook is ripe with idiots that know nothing.
Back to my point at the top...I've made my points here but if you're stuck on going the route of coil overs with stock lower control arms, there is a genuine risk of the inner section of the control arm pulling out when the bushing fails, and it will fail. In stock form, the torsion bar is in place to eliminate fore-aft movement of the control arm. The strut rod is not enough to hold the control arm in place.

Please don't be upset I do take , and have taken everything into consideration of everyone's opinion. And I agree 100% on Farcebook opinion. The Poly/Rubber that I was referring to was the insulators for the k-member, just to clarify this.

 

[Shorty Thompson]

Don't be coy, who is the "gentleman"?

I'd really rather not say.

 

[Shorty Thompson]

That is some funny ****...."Just my opinion of course".....

Don't mean to be rude , but you know what they say about opinions and buttholes right, everybody's got 1 , some just stink a little more than others, lol.

 

[j-c-c-62]

Yes, I disagree that a greased TB connection between two metals in two locations is secured adequately by static load.
I also have fundamental engineering differences with anyone promoting LCA plating on anything up to a superspeedway banked race car.
My objections on the matter are well posted for decades, and no need to rehash what has never changed.

 

[Kern Dog]

Two more points:
1) The “just my opinion” bit is an inside joke in reference to a member here that uses that phrase in a passive/aggressive manner.
2) I have personally driven tens of thousands of miles in classic Mopars that did NOT have those thin spring clips to retain the torsion bars at the crossmember. The tension that the torsion bars are under, greased or not, sure seems to keep them in place. I’ve never had a bar come loose. In theory it could happen but it hasn’t happened yet.
One final comment…
When a person posts a question online asking for help, be as detailed as possible. Read what you wrote before submitting. It is easy to leave words or details out that may discourage people from trying to help.

 

[j-c-c-62]

Do you work for Boeing?

Seriously, that anecdote then goes to question how much TB's really do to retain a LCA on its pivot point or how much force is at play to cause the LCA to want to move aft.

 

[Shorty Thompson]

​

 

[Shorty Thompson]

I didn't realize it had a shoulder on it. However this is what I am talking about.

 

[j-c-c-62]

Your point is not clear to me.

Circling back to TB retainer clips and their seeming frailness, I have wondered in the past if that was not an intentional OEM passive safety feature in the case of a hard front impact, since the TB's likely would become a potential lethal spear, if it was longitudinally solidly located.

 

[Shorty Thompson]

Your point is not clear to me.

Circling back to TB retainer clips and their seeming frailness, I have wondered in the past if that was not an intentional OEM passive safety feature in the case of a hard front impact, since the TB's likely would become a potential lethal spear, if it was longitudinally solidly located.

Well before I up and do something , before I make a irreversible mistake I ask. In the pictures I posted I'm guessing that you all see the torsion bar location on the lower control arm assembly. Understand " yet " I don't know if the bolt/attaching point of the lower control arm starts at the cup area if you will, travels through the rubber/neoprene insulator, then mounts to the k-member. And I doubt it does myself, be great if it did, but doubtful. Now what I was thinking was manufacturing a bracket off the K-member to hold the torsion bar cup in place. I can see it as being possible. I can't see it as ever being serviceable. Get what I mean?

 

[Kern Dog]

Don't be coy, who is the "gentleman"?

I'd really rather not say.

Yeah, that is very telling when you won't name the "expert" that convinced you of this idea.
Go ahead and do the stupid thing that everyone here advises against. You clearly wanted someone to validate that this was a good idea and it isn't happening.
I hope that nobody gets hurt by this stupid idea.

 

[LowBikeMike]

The control arm bolt is pressed into the bushing. It is not a thru-bolt, and that shoulder does not hold anything in place

 

[WileERobby]

Two more points:
1) The “just my opinion” bit is an inside joke in reference to a member here that uses that phrase in a passive/aggressive manner.
One final comment…
When a person posts a question online asking for help, be as detailed as possible. Read what you wrote before submitting. It is easy to leave words or details out that may discourage people from trying to help.

And use correct spelling, grammar, and punctuation. ... just my opinion, of course.

 

[Shorty Thompson]

Yeah, that is very telling when you won't name the "expert" that convinced you of this idea.
Go ahead and do the stupid thing that everyone here advises against. You clearly wanted someone to validate that this was a good idea and it isn't happening.
I hope that nobody gets hurt by this stupid idea.

Alright Kern. First off it wasn't his idea, it was mine so we'll get that out of the way now. All I wanted to know is if it would work, or possible. Now then. If I had asked " you " ( which I did not ) if this would work, I wouldn't throw you under the bus either. Okay!

 

[wedgie]

Playing with the idea of taking the torsion bars out, leaving them out and stepping over to Koni Coil overs on the front. What I am seriously concerned about is will the lower control arms stay in place, or dislocate themselves from their pivots?

If your heart is set on dumping the stock suspension in favor of coilovers, Check Reilly Motor Sports (RMS). Not cheap but super quality. Reilly MotorSports, Inc.

Playing with the idea of taking the torsion bars out, leaving them out and stepping over to Koni Coil overs on the front. What I am seriously concerned about is will the lower control arms stay in place, or dislocate themselves from their pivots?

 

[Shorty Thompson]

If your heart is set on dumping the stock suspension in favor of coilovers, Check Reilly Motor Sports (RMS). Not cheap but super quality. Reilly MotorSports, Inc.

Message sent but I did see anything for my app.