Trouble with Timing Chain install 383

[HawkRod]

Put BOTH dots at 12:00.

The "Dot to dot" setting is with the cam at 6:00 and the crank at 12:00.
EVERY time that I have done this, the engine is on the #6 cylinder firing location. It took me awhile to learn that when I was younger.
I wrenched on many Chevys before I came back to Ma Mopar. The Chevy and Mopar engines do share a lot of similarities. They have the same firing orders, they have siamesed intake and exhaust ports, in the case of the LA and Chevy small block series, even more stuff is similar.
With the crank sprocket at 12:00 and the camshaft sprocket also at 12:00, you're at the #1 cylinder firing location. You need a straightedge to aim through the cam sprocket and to the crank hub to verify that they are both exactly at 12:00. Maybe some just default to the dot to dot and stab the distributor to aim toward #6 because it is easier and the end result is the same anyway.

I respectfully disagree with you.

To repeat what others have said: When you line up the cam and crank "dot to dot", the engine is then at firing of #6 (TDC of #6). But you still want to install the cam that way. Installing it with both dots at 12:00 makes it much easier to have the timing off a tooth.
Again, as others have said: Install the cam dot to dot. This way you can see the dots clearly and get them lined up properly. Later on, when you are ready to drop the distributor in, rotate the engine 360 degrees and you will be at TDC of #1. Now you can drop the distributor in with the rotor pointing at #1 (OK, near #1 - actually you want to put some advance in it, but that's another story).

 

[roadrunnerh]

@HawkRod What you told me about #6 cylinder at Carlisle now makes sense!

To all: I confused myself by thinking dot to dot meant spark at #1.
Thanks for the patient replies to help drill the information into my head,
sometimes I "outsmart" myself by over-thinking.

 

[moparedtn]

As to the OP's original question on a 383, @rickseeman amongst many others are correct, of course.
So many questions could be answered with judicious use of the Factory Service Manual...
Speaking of which, here ya go, right out of the FSM:

A good service manual is worth its' weight in gold - and they're still available for reference online, too.

 

[roadrunnerh]

I have both the 1968 and 1975 FSM and Parts Books and use them frequently.

 

[Don67Satellite]

As correct as some people are that many questions could be answered by just RTFM, sometimes that brain fart you're having just needs to ask someone. And that's what this forum is for.

 

[Kern Dog]

I respectfully disagree with you.

To repeat what others have said: When you line up the cam and crank "dot to dot", the engine is then at firing of #6 (TDC of #6). But you still want to install the cam that way. Installing it with both dots at 12:00 makes it much easier to have the timing off a tooth.
Again, as others have said: Install the cam dot to dot. This way you can see the dots clearly and get them lined up properly. Later on, when you are ready to drop the distributor in, rotate the engine 360 degrees and you will be at TDC of #1. Now you can drop the distributor in with the rotor pointing at #1 (OK, near #1 - actually you want to put some advance in it, but that's another story).

I get that.
The “both dots at 12:00" does require a straight edge or a Carpenters eye to know they are lined up.
My Carpenter’s eye is okay with the 12/12 method. The dot to dot is easier but is as stated, it puts the engine at the #6 firing position so we are aiming toward the same result through different paths.
It surely wasn’t my intention to make this harder than it has to be.

 

[threewood]

Set it dot to dot, then rotate 360°. Now you are tdc compression stroke on #1.

 

[Don Frelier]

It looks like you're doing a first class job in assembly.
Dot to Dot will certainly get it to run.
But I would strongly suggest checking with a degree wheel.
Then you know what you've got.

 

[roadrunnerh]

@Don Frelier I would like to degree the cam, are you offering a tutorial? LOL
Honestly, I'm hesitant because I never used a degree wheel. I have a loose knowledge of what that involves.
Does it matter if it's a three bolt or single bolt cam?
Plus, just look how I got sideways on just lining up dots and feeling ok with the results...

 

[moparedtn]

@Don Frelier I would like to degree the cam, are you offering a tutorial? LOL
Honestly, I'm hesitant because I never used a degree wheel. I have a loose knowledge of what that involves.
Does it matter if it's a three bolt or single bolt cam?
Plus, just look how I got sideways on just lining up dots and feeling ok with the results...

Our own @rickseeman , among many others, has some really good videos on their YouTube channel
that shows how to do it - but honestly, unless you've got some sort of custom grind or "hot" cam,
dot to dot will be just fine.

 

[Kern Dog]

Lots of people install camshafts without degree-ing them. The risk is that you're not able to notice any defects unless you do degree it.
It may be ground wrong and you'll be unaware. The car may not reach it's potential.
I've only degreed 3 cams in my life and all 3 had errors at some point. THAT or my skills were not adequate at the procedure.
A MP 292/509 measured 1.5 degrees retarded when installed dot to dot but when set to 4 degrees advanced, it read 4 degrees. I had similar luck with an MP '528 solid and the Lunati I have now.
Some error could be in the timing set itself, not the cam.

 

[Don Frelier]

@Don Frelier I would like to degree the cam, are you offering a tutorial? LOL
Honestly, I'm hesitant because I never used a degree wheel. I have a loose knowledge of what that involves.
Does it matter if it's a three bolt or single bolt cam?
Plus, just look how I got sideways on just lining up dots and feeling ok with the results...

I'd love to help but our long distance relationship causes a problem.
It does look like you have a high quality double roller timing set installed so that gives some assurance that accuracy of the timing set itself would be good.
So if the keyway on your crank is accurate and the cam grind and locating dowel are all located closely it should be very close to where the cam specification dictates.
No it doesn't matter if it's a single or three bolt cam/timing set.
It's when you get additive errors all in the same direction when the cam timing can be off.
For me the numbers are important and I like to know what they are from an engineering standpoint.

I guess at this point before you install heads my suggestion would be to at least find how accurate your TDC mark on your balancer is at.
You'll need to make or obtain a piston stop above cylinder #1 and then rotate the crank each direction until it hits the stop.
Write down the two numbers on the timing indicator when the piston hits the stop.
For example -8 and +7 degrees, add and divide by 2 so then your real TDC would be (-8 + 7)/2 = -.5 degrees.
It's an easy thing to do and then you know exactly what your ignition timing number is.

Something like this works it doesn't have to be fancy:

 

[HawkRod]

I agree that degreeing a cam is important. Two examples: A 340 cam was 10 degrees advanced and a 440 cam was 4 degrees retarded. There are more errors than you might think, so cams that are "off" is more common than you may think.

You engine is out and there are a number of good video tutorials on the subject. If at all you can degree the cam, I would so you end up running at the full potential of your engine.

 

[roadrunnerh]

Even though, you may have noticed in post #20 I included a pic of the timing cover ON along with harmonic balancer torqued to 135 ft-lb. It is said "Listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future."

After @Don Frelier and @HawkRod imploring me to degree the camshaft AND out of an abundance of respect to them and those on this thread that have suggested the same. And of course for the collective FBBO brotherhood...

This degree wheel kit is on the way, timing cover gasket, along with some other goodies from Summit!

Trick Flow Specialties TFS-90000-16 Trick Flow® Cam Degree Kits | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Trick Flow® Cam Degree Kits with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Camshaft Degree Kits at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

Tomorrow, I'll pull the balancer, timing cover, and clean up.
THANK YOU for helping me in spite of myself and my resistance based in fear! This forum kicks ***!

 

[HawkRod]

Even though, you may have noticed in post #20 I included a pic of the timing cover ON along with harmonic balancer torqued to 135 ft-lb. It is said "Listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future."

After @Don Frelier and @HawkRod imploring me to degree the camshaft AND out of an abundance of respect to them and those on this thread that have suggested the same. And of course for the collective FBBO brotherhood...

This degree wheel kit is on the way, timing cover gasket, along with some other goodies from Summit!

http://[URL]https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-90000-16

[/URL]

Tomorrow, I'll pull the balancer, timing cover, and clean up.
THANK YOU for helping me in spite of myself and my resistance based in fear! This forum kicks ***!

I think that's a good move. At worst, the cam will degree perfectly and you will feel you wasted time to degree it.
But, it is very possible you will find it is advanced or retarded. And then, with some adjustment. You can get your car running like it should!

 

[Don Frelier]

Besides it's always easier to do something the 2nd time.

And I will be sleeping in a Holiday Inn Express come Monday night.

 

[Cranky]

Yup, I've preached using a degree wheel for years! AND I've found parts that were not on the money more than once. Think about it....using the dot method is putting a lot of trust in whoever machined the cam and sprockets and also the timing marks on the balancer. Think about this scenario....you buy a new cam and it's ground 5 degrees retarded and then your timing gear keyway/pin hole is off that much too and right off the bat you have a cam that's off 10 degrees. A cam that's retarded 10 degree WILL be noticeable. Then what if your balancer isn't on the money either? I became a journeyman machinist in early 84 and saw a lot of crap machinists over the next 22 years. There were guys that couldn't hit a nail with a dinner plate let alone set up a machine to make an accurate machining operation.

 

[roadrunnerh]

Besides it's always easier to do something the 2nd time.

Thanks Don. lol

 

[RemCharger]

Err on the advanced side. It will add torque, and naturally retard due to chain stretch etc

 

[roadrunnerh]

Ok fellas, here's where Harry starts wondering "is it worth the aggravation and confusion to degree this cam?"
I bought this

COMP Cams 4933CPG COMP Cams Top Dead Center Tools | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - COMP Cams Top Dead Center Tools with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Piston Stops at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

and this

COMP Cams 4799CPG COMP Cams Crankshaft Sockets | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - COMP Cams Crankshaft Sockets with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Crankshaft Sockets at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

Because neither were in the Trick Flow branded degree wheel kit I purchased.

When I use the TDC "bar" tool, the piston does not stop, I have to adjust the small stud/pin in the center.
So I would only be stopping against the pin (assuming I set the depth correctly)?
There's no defined stop, it's variable, I'm playing with that stud/pin.
I'm having trouble getting past how I am measuring degrees on a wheel but to start I am going off something sooo variable.
I could dot to dot and then adjust the tool to stop the piston, but then I lost where it "truly" is when at TDC.
I watch YT videos and the ******* piston stops.
Help!