Went back to a carb
- Thread starter CoronetDarter
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Maybe next time, you'll keep your piehole shut.
Professionals have had mixed results with these products as well.
rmchrgr
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I don't understand that comment either. Sounds like the guy did what he could to get it working and ultimately just had enough. Bummer for him but life is too short to keep beating your head against the wall, makes the hobby un-fun.
And unless a so-called "professional" has direct experience with the OP's particular product and application, has gone through whatever troubles to fix whatever hurdles presented themselves, that person would be no better off.
For what it's worth, I used to be a "professional", a Chrysler dealership line tech. I went to the Mopar tech school and learned all sorts of stuff that would make your head explode. However, getting all my aftermarket junk to work together took a lot of work, research, and plenty of do-overs, it wasn't easy-peasy by any stretch. I basically made an entirely new Sniper harness from scratch because the supplied one basically sucked.
And then after all the work I did re-engineering a supposedly "plug and play" product, I couldn't get it started. Once again, I had to go through all sorts of checks and pulling stuff apart etc. to get it running. It's still an ongoing endeavor.
These forums don't magically produce every answer to every single problem. There's a lot of garbage info out there but that's been true since before the internet. Sometimes there is good input which can at least get you pointed in the right direction or make you see something that you hadn't before. Telling people to call someone for advice is a cop out.
And unless a so-called "professional" has direct experience with the OP's particular product and application, has gone through whatever troubles to fix whatever hurdles presented themselves, that person would be no better off.
For what it's worth, I used to be a "professional", a Chrysler dealership line tech. I went to the Mopar tech school and learned all sorts of stuff that would make your head explode. However, getting all my aftermarket junk to work together took a lot of work, research, and plenty of do-overs, it wasn't easy-peasy by any stretch. I basically made an entirely new Sniper harness from scratch because the supplied one basically sucked.
And then after all the work I did re-engineering a supposedly "plug and play" product, I couldn't get it started. Once again, I had to go through all sorts of checks and pulling stuff apart etc. to get it running. It's still an ongoing endeavor.
These forums don't magically produce every answer to every single problem. There's a lot of garbage info out there but that's been true since before the internet. Sometimes there is good input which can at least get you pointed in the right direction or make you see something that you hadn't before. Telling people to call someone for advice is a cop out.
I had two professionals helping me put my package together, and combined with my experience as an electrician, we still had issues. But working through the problems, and with assistance from JohnnyMac, and a small group of friends here, we got that sucker running.
Even the best of us still have problems, and I certainly would not have taken my vehicle to a 'Shop of professionals' to get the conversion done....I would be paying for that for the rest of my life....and probably not have the same result.
Even the best of us still have problems, and I certainly would not have taken my vehicle to a 'Shop of professionals' to get the conversion done....I would be paying for that for the rest of my life....and probably not have the same result.
747mopar
Well-Known Member
When my wife wanted remote start I didn't want any part of laying under the dash for hours and took it to the #1 car audio installer around here.. PROFESSIONALS, yeah right! A year later it developed a miss, after a brief conversation with the Chrysler dealership about how it wouldn't be covered under warranty if anything had been tampered with I decided to take a look for myself before they bent me over.. those professionals drilled a hole through the dash for routing 1 wire and didn't use a grommet! 15 minute fix all because some assclown probably didn't want to work an extra 2 minutes or ran out of grommets, not me, no professionals are touching my car.
There's not going to be a next time. I don't know if a shop install would've prevented the fuel pump, ECM, and handheld from failing. But, I've talked to lots of EFI owners at car shows and the majority of them had their systems installed by a shop. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The narrative keeps circling back that EFI isn't necessarily a DIY project or they're 'plug and play'.
It's a reality that the shade tree hobbyist needs to keep in mind when considering swapping over.
Speaking of car shows, you can always tell when you're talking to an EFI-guy vs. a carb guy. Tell the EFI guy that the carb just won't tune, he'll say that of course it's the carb, ditch the 100+ year old technology. But tell that same guy that you can't get the EFI to tune, now it's the installer's fault, "you probably didn't follow the install directions".
threewood
Well-Known Member
I was happy with my AVS2 and I am happy with my Sniper. No issues with mine so far. Internal Walbro 450 pump inside a Holley Sniper tank.
I did add 6an ptfe braided line to keep it low maintenance.
I don't think I would be upset putting a carb back on but for now the Sniper stays. I think the throttle response in mine is tighter with the Sniper.
I did add 6an ptfe braided line to keep it low maintenance.
I don't think I would be upset putting a carb back on but for now the Sniper stays. I think the throttle response in mine is tighter with the Sniper.
rmchrgr
Well-Known Member
Cab and EFI have their place. EFI can add complexity where there doesn't need to be and it's expensive for minimal performance gain. Guess you need to prepare for that going in, it will make your life easier. Also, not everyone is going to be able to tune their EFI system like a fuel systems engineer. In fact, I've learned there's very few people that actually can do it at a high level and I'm not one of them.
But, I do enjoy being able to get in the car, start it up on the first try and drive it without a concern for anything going on under the hood. I like to play with it and see if I can affect some discernible change but usually there's no difference in performance and I switch whatever parameter back to where it was.
That said, like most people here, I've spent countless hours bent over the fenders of carbureted cars dialing them in - getting rid of bogs, tuning the choke, idle and transition circuits, power valves, accelerator pump shots and on and on. This has been on anything from rowdy street/strip cars to trucks to Slants. Like anything, 95% of the time you don't just bolt them on and go, you're always going to have to have to make some sort of adjustment to get things where you want them.
Sorry to bust out the cliches but the most important thing is to have fun with whatever you do. If your EFI sucks, yank it out and don't look back.
But, I do enjoy being able to get in the car, start it up on the first try and drive it without a concern for anything going on under the hood. I like to play with it and see if I can affect some discernible change but usually there's no difference in performance and I switch whatever parameter back to where it was.
That said, like most people here, I've spent countless hours bent over the fenders of carbureted cars dialing them in - getting rid of bogs, tuning the choke, idle and transition circuits, power valves, accelerator pump shots and on and on. This has been on anything from rowdy street/strip cars to trucks to Slants. Like anything, 95% of the time you don't just bolt them on and go, you're always going to have to have to make some sort of adjustment to get things where you want them.
Sorry to bust out the cliches but the most important thing is to have fun with whatever you do. If your EFI sucks, yank it out and don't look back.
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If the aftermarket EFI systems were as reliable as a new car, I'd see the benefits. They just don't have the $$$ to invest in the development. The idea of a 5.7-6.1-6.4 3G Hemi with the factory EFI getting mid 20s mpg with the same performance that I get with a 12 mpg 440 based 493....That is interesting. Factory reliability, parts availability, fuel economy and less weight too?
The port injected systems like the Edelbrock XT (Do I have that right?) seem to be closer to an OEM approach. The throttle body EFIs were something the new car manufacturers used as a stepping stone to Port injection.
The port injected systems like the Edelbrock XT (Do I have that right?) seem to be closer to an OEM approach. The throttle body EFIs were something the new car manufacturers used as a stepping stone to Port injection.
rmchrgr
Well-Known Member
For the average muscle car dude switching to EFI in his home garage, the throttle body systems offer the cleanest packaging and ease of install. Same basic idea as a carb and same mounting just electronically controlled. With my air cleaner on Joe Schmoe at the local cruise night will have to look hard to notice the EFI equipment.
Port injection is more complex than a throttle body especially if you get into the waste spark systems and coil near or on plug setups. MPI or sequential injection requires a different intake to accept fuel rails and external injectors. Don’t forget the crank trigger, cam and crank sensors, yada yada.
I’m not pimping for Holley but I have to think if the OP went with a Sniper over the FI Tech he wouldn’t be in this situation. I’m sure that system works for some people but with all the research I’ve done about retrofit EFi systems I tend to notice more negatives than positives. Talk about money for development, Holley is a big company with plenty of resources and I believe they managed to develop a good product. Other than the wiring, (which they could solve by supplying unterminated wire and terminals) the Sniper has been great. There’s a ton of support and parts for it too. Maybe if there is a next time.
Port injection is more complex than a throttle body especially if you get into the waste spark systems and coil near or on plug setups. MPI or sequential injection requires a different intake to accept fuel rails and external injectors. Don’t forget the crank trigger, cam and crank sensors, yada yada.
I’m not pimping for Holley but I have to think if the OP went with a Sniper over the FI Tech he wouldn’t be in this situation. I’m sure that system works for some people but with all the research I’ve done about retrofit EFi systems I tend to notice more negatives than positives. Talk about money for development, Holley is a big company with plenty of resources and I believe they managed to develop a good product. Other than the wiring, (which they could solve by supplying unterminated wire and terminals) the Sniper has been great. There’s a ton of support and parts for it too. Maybe if there is a next time.
doc332
Member
'65 Satellite with Dick Landy crate engine 426W and NHRA legal. I don't race it, but I do flog it real good once in a while. Has Edelbrock AVS 800. Best thing I ever did was establish an O2 sensor port and temporarily installed a gas analyzer and ultimately tuned it to the suggested specs that came with the Edelbrock tuning kit. It uses an Edelbrock HP mechanical pump, electric choke, Chrysler electronic distributer with small springs. Starts easily, idles perfectly at 900RPM, off idle stab would make you think it has fuel injection by the way it responds with a 4.11 rear 8 3/4 big pinion Moser center section and Moser axles, sticky Micky's, has run 12.80 quarter mile at Muncie, will idle in traffic, goes great down the interstate with a Gear Vendors OD (no complaints here), and is a Ruby Red delight. I never run fuel containing ethanol, because the boiling point is so much lower than gasoline. In my mind, that is the answer.
Sweet5ltr
Well-Known Member
Very good outlook, but no, I was apart of both FiTech & the Holley Sniper FB group as well from the very beginning (thinking identically after seeing the issues with FiTech) - and with my own ownership experience - I would never recommend these systems for a daily driver, although many have 'good luck' with them for the first few years of ownership until a fuel pump or injector fails.
I've seen literally hundreds of posts over the years of failed units, most at the 2-3 year mark, my own Holley Sniper unit had both an Injector & ECU failure.
Holley even had an issue with the Hyperspark distributor shaft length (cutting too short) for 383/400 Mopars, which ended up me sending a few distributors to the MSD Engineering department (How long have they been building distributors again?). FiTech had their own problems originally (to put it lightly), the owners community basically solved all of them and kept them in business.
Unless the car came originally with OEM EFI, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, tuning with a wideband for a week to get the carb dialed in and moving on.
I think we all get caught up in the moment sometimes, most want to believe these are the equivalent of what's OEM in their brand-new car or truck (which many of the serviceable components are OEM), but that's simply not the case. Edelbrock seems to have one of the better kits available IMHO for a street car.
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If anyone wants 'EFI throttle response' on their carb, switch to a 1:1 linkage setup...
Cruising big engines around on what amounts to a two-barrel carb is where the perceived disparity in response between the two comes from, IMO.
I went 1:1 (for awhile..) and yes had to re-calibrate, and yes the mileage suffered somewhat...but holy hell what a blast that was. I don't know that you'd want to do it forever as it can get dicey really quick especially on something with some oats, but I think it's one of those things everyone should try at least once.
Cruising big engines around on what amounts to a two-barrel carb is where the perceived disparity in response between the two comes from, IMO.
I went 1:1 (for awhile..) and yes had to re-calibrate, and yes the mileage suffered somewhat...but holy hell what a blast that was. I don't know that you'd want to do it forever as it can get dicey really quick especially on something with some oats, but I think it's one of those things everyone should try at least once.
RoasterStrudel
Well-Known Member
I had a big long post that I just cut down to this...Still long. With my little variety of experiences with TBI-style EFI systems, I think they all will have their problems (my opinion).
-Seen and heard many horror stories on FiTech's early entry-level systems, especially from less-than-savvy car flippers. Lots of no-starts and sensor failures.
-Tinkered/assisted on two FAST XFI Sportsman setups. Looked to be versatile, but had quite a few communication problems (timeouts) and ECM lockups. Looked to be properly installed in the short time I looked at it, but I couldn't properly vouch for, or review those setups.
I personally thought I'd like the Holley Sniper system for my own build, but I'd be afraid of the controls riding directly on the throttle body for heat reasons. -At least for my application.
High dollar kits with port injection will have more capability and adjustability, but also should probably have hardware to match: name brand injectors, OEM style sensors, etc. I'd like to think you get what you pay for.
I have one "daily-worthy," modified EFI vehicle that I tuned that's cold-started and run good enough between -17°F and mid 90's ambient temps (live in the Midwest).
I put 30,000 miles on it, but I spent hours street-tuning it...Probably 7,000+ tuning miles. Sure, you can get WOT down in a few hours on a dyno. But everything in-between? Recording tons of datalogs, studying them like you're gonna be tested on 'em, changes after studying, changes on the fly... Didn't think I'd have to retard timing 4° between 1,800-2,200 RPM just to account overdrive, with a hefty headwind on top of highway speed wind resistance, and the A/C being on.
Do-all aftermarket systems are hard to please everyone. OE based calibrations take in lots of calculations and variables that I'm just plain scared to touch because they all interact with each other. One fat fingered number or large change can turn a good equation into a pile. Not a good time to learn this when you're trying to leave work, or in a bad neighborhood, etc.
My car isn't going to be going out in conditions way below freezing. I'd be adding a lot of complexity and cost for something that mostly operates in nice weather around the same elevation...Y'know?
Thinking out loud. There's no wrong answer, everyone has a different goal.
-Seen and heard many horror stories on FiTech's early entry-level systems, especially from less-than-savvy car flippers. Lots of no-starts and sensor failures.
-Tinkered/assisted on two FAST XFI Sportsman setups. Looked to be versatile, but had quite a few communication problems (timeouts) and ECM lockups. Looked to be properly installed in the short time I looked at it, but I couldn't properly vouch for, or review those setups.
I personally thought I'd like the Holley Sniper system for my own build, but I'd be afraid of the controls riding directly on the throttle body for heat reasons. -At least for my application.
High dollar kits with port injection will have more capability and adjustability, but also should probably have hardware to match: name brand injectors, OEM style sensors, etc. I'd like to think you get what you pay for.
I have one "daily-worthy," modified EFI vehicle that I tuned that's cold-started and run good enough between -17°F and mid 90's ambient temps (live in the Midwest).
I put 30,000 miles on it, but I spent hours street-tuning it...Probably 7,000+ tuning miles. Sure, you can get WOT down in a few hours on a dyno. But everything in-between? Recording tons of datalogs, studying them like you're gonna be tested on 'em, changes after studying, changes on the fly... Didn't think I'd have to retard timing 4° between 1,800-2,200 RPM just to account overdrive, with a hefty headwind on top of highway speed wind resistance, and the A/C being on.
Do-all aftermarket systems are hard to please everyone. OE based calibrations take in lots of calculations and variables that I'm just plain scared to touch because they all interact with each other. One fat fingered number or large change can turn a good equation into a pile. Not a good time to learn this when you're trying to leave work, or in a bad neighborhood, etc.
My car isn't going to be going out in conditions way below freezing. I'd be adding a lot of complexity and cost for something that mostly operates in nice weather around the same elevation...Y'know?
Thinking out loud. There's no wrong answer, everyone has a different goal.
hashmaker
Well-Known Member
Sweet5ltr
Well-Known Member
Good way at looking at this situation. My issue from the very beginning, has been how deceptive these companies have been in terms of 'ease of use' to sell these products. These are incredibly complex systems when you actually dig into the software and variable parameters that must be user modified, but they are all promoted as 'self tuning' - which rarely they do very well unless you're aware of the procedure required to actually self tune them.
Tuning is not driving to the grocery store a few times, it's a step-by-step process that Holley (and others) don't provide, and it needs to be correct to get the most out of these 'self learning' systems. Mad Science Motorsports for example, has it down to a science on how to tune these systems, and he would be the first custom tuner I would call if installing one today.
Some have great luck with these systems, but as you mentioned, you get what you pay for. Doing it over, I would have went with a Dominator ECU and built the system I wanted from the ground up, with the best EFI parts available.
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rmchrgr
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this. The Sniper is absolutely 'self learning' and does a pretty good job of it. Not sure what else there is to say other than it does what it's supposed to do. Obviously for the learn function to be optimal, you need to have everything working properly - no vacuum leaks, no fuel delivery issues, clean voltage, etc.
Frankly, there seems to be some straight up fear about EFI in general, like it's this crazy, new-fangled technology that only experts know how to manipulate. Or if you get it installed and make some unwitting change total mechanical meltdown will invariably occur at the worst possible time. If you know how to tune a carburetor, you can tune an EFI system, it's the same thing. In fact, I would almost say it's easier to deal with EFI because there's an interface providing real-time graphical data that you can see unlike a carb which is generally a pure trial-and-error process.
Second, there seem to be a lot of unrealistic expectations about how EFI is supposed to work, like it's some magic thing that will do all this great stuff without lifting a finger. Maybe that's the marketing, I don't know. I tend to ignore advertising copy because it's being written to sell you a product. That's been the same for go-fast parts since the dawn of time. Like the tag line for a TV ad that used to run here in the NY area for a certain clothing store - "an educated consumer is out best customer".
Beyond the initial purchase, what often gets misunderstood is that whatever system you are using learns a tune based on what the 02 is seeing. Essentially that means garbage in, garbage out. If you have a vacuum leak, that's more air and the ECU will compensate appropriately and richen up the mixture and it will keep doing it until you realize you have to fix the leak. In modern OBD2 cars, if something is out of whack, you get a code and check engine light. Our ancient vehicles clearly don't have that capability so in a sense you are flying a little blind. I recently fixed an exhaust leak on my car and although not dramatic, I could absolutely feel a change in the way the car drives. I didn't touch anything in the ECU but the learn tables changed to accommodate the new condition.
Also, when you first set it up, most novices (like me) rely on the wizard to get the car running. It's a generic state of tune that covers a wide variety of parameters. Case in point - the wizard idle target AFR is 12.0:1 WTF? Why do I need my idle so rich? Idling briefly in my garage (doors open) I could smell fuel and my eyes were burning. Did a little research and found something to try. Went back out to the handheld, changed the idle target AFR to 14.2:1 and it made a huge difference in idle and tip in behavior. One click, that was it.
And once you get familiar with logging data, you can start to see and interpret how changes at certain points can make a difference in how the car feels. With the Sniper you have the ability to load your own tune and replace the generic wizard settings to make it more tailored to your specific combo and driving habits. BTW, that's also where the Holley forums are beneficial - you can upload a file and you'll get people to look it over and offer advice. There's a couple guys on there that are very helpful including one of our better-known members.
I'm not at the point where I'm creating my own tune yet but so far my overall drivability has been OK so I've not had any real need to get that far into it.
Not trying to convince anyone that EFI is the be-all end-all but it does get frustrating to read about guys having problems and then the whole idea gets bashed. I don't know every problem situation but overall it appears the negativity has to do with skepticism and unrealistic expectations as opposed to working through problems.
At the dealership we used to call those guys parts changers. Car would come in with some vague problem, they'd have no idea what to do, do no testing, research etc. They figure they need to do something to get paid so they'd blame the PCM or something similar. A new one goes in, 2 days later the car is back with the same problem. Jeez, who knew?
There's no free lunch.
I got to the point that I was pretty proficient at tuning. I wasn't data logging, but I was fattening up the mixture at one end and leaning it out at idle, etc. Mainly I was working on solving the hot start issue. And then the handheld died. The decision to abort and go back to a carb was about the reliability of the hardware. I lost confidence in FiTech's products and as a result was hesitant to drive the Coronet any long distances for fear of being stranded.
BTW, I've mentioned my neighbor a couple times in this thread; he's run the FiTech in his pickup truck for almost four years now. On Sunday I walked over to driveway because his hood was up. He was replacing a bad fuel injector. It was a 10 minute fix and it didn't strand him, but he was more than a little annoyed that he had to buy a fuel injector after only four years.
BTW, I've mentioned my neighbor a couple times in this thread; he's run the FiTech in his pickup truck for almost four years now. On Sunday I walked over to driveway because his hood was up. He was replacing a bad fuel injector. It was a 10 minute fix and it didn't strand him, but he was more than a little annoyed that he had to buy a fuel injector after only four years.
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