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426!
Why? Because a 440 has too many cubes!
Why? Because a 440 has too many cubes!
Last edited:
Which is better and why? Old 440 or newer 6.4?
- Thread starter Qbrozen
- Start date
I’m considering it in my 69 RTSE, not original Engine and Trans, not the original paint or interior color, it was changed at sometime during its life.
I was talking to david.ksuperbee
He said this:
“6.4L with a 8HP70 8 speed trans, keep the 3.23’s and get 28mpg.
Engine wise I would get rid of the MDS cam and lifters. Even a factory none MDS cam would work if they offer them.
I know the motor was the most expensive part. The holley ecm was like $1200 headers like $700. Holley brackets maybe $60 bucks and fuel lines and some wire. Maybe a radiator and alternator.”
I was talking to david.ksuperbee
He said this:
“6.4L with a 8HP70 8 speed trans, keep the 3.23’s and get 28mpg.
Engine wise I would get rid of the MDS cam and lifters. Even a factory none MDS cam would work if they offer them.
I know the motor was the most expensive part. The holley ecm was like $1200 headers like $700. Holley brackets maybe $60 bucks and fuel lines and some wire. Maybe a radiator and alternator.”
mopar5150
Well-Known Member
There are a lot of advantages that the modern hemi has over the 440 that don't get mentioned. The modern hemi is virtually gasketless and simply doesn't leak. You get modern alternator and AC compressor and they are driven by a serpentine belt (the power steering can be a minor hassle). The engine cooling is much, much better on the modern engine. It is smaller and lighter. a 500 HP modern hemi will idle all day in traffic, make plenty of vacuum for brakes and get 21mpg on the highway. No distributer, no plug wires to burn on headers. You will need to put good fuel and exhaust systems in your car no matter what engine you pick. There are hundreds of thousands of modern engines driving around you every day, so if the complexity of the modern setup is as bad as some guys say there would be hundreds of dead cars laying all around you.
Yes, my truck did leave me stuck IN the entrance to Spring Fling one time due to a dead fuel pump. I made all kinds of friends that day.
The modern engine is more complex to install and if you can not do the work yourself it will cost MUCH more. It is not much harder than a fuel injected 440. However, there are places like Cleaveland power and performance that sells pretty much anything you will need.
All this talk is based on a 6.4 and 450-500 hp 440s and this is expensive on both sides of the fence. If the goal is a fun driver with all of the modern engine benefits then look into a 5.7 truck based swap. You get all of the advantages of the new engine and an overdrive trans that has a slip yoke. At a bare minimum it only takes 5 wires to make this setup run and drive.
A 5.7 with an overdrive and 3.91 gears makes for a fun car and will cost $4-6K less to put in. We did a 5.7L swap in a friends '69 cuda very cheaply. Granted we did all of the work in house. I also tossed a 125K mile 5.7L into the '55 for a year as a science project. That was years ago but the total cost was $2200 as everything was salvaged from a wrecked ram.
The only real downer is that the new engine will never have the lope of a cammed 440 (you can fake it but why).
It comes down to what you want out of the car. A modern engine can sit for 3 months and then start up and drive away in 40 degree weather. I have driven on rod runs from the desert floor at 111 degrees with the ac on up to the mountains where it is 70 with no issues. The modern engine will sit in bumper to bumper traffic for hours with the AC on.
I run a 6.1L hemi that had 50K hard miles on it when I bought it used and I put another 30K on it. I daily drove this car for a year and still drive it 2-3 times a week. This engine with a cam, ported heads and ported intake made 470 at the rear wheels with a tuned factory engine controller. I now run a FAST EFI system and truth be told I should have stuck with the factory parts.
You have an RT car without the numbers matching engine so I say modify it. There are hundreds of "real RTs" that are either projects that will never see the road again or are restored and never driven.
I say put a modern hemi in it followed by an overdrive manual or auto trans and drive the hell out of it. If you use a Mopar 4-speed you will not have to cut the tunnel.
Yes, my truck did leave me stuck IN the entrance to Spring Fling one time due to a dead fuel pump. I made all kinds of friends that day.
The modern engine is more complex to install and if you can not do the work yourself it will cost MUCH more. It is not much harder than a fuel injected 440. However, there are places like Cleaveland power and performance that sells pretty much anything you will need.
All this talk is based on a 6.4 and 450-500 hp 440s and this is expensive on both sides of the fence. If the goal is a fun driver with all of the modern engine benefits then look into a 5.7 truck based swap. You get all of the advantages of the new engine and an overdrive trans that has a slip yoke. At a bare minimum it only takes 5 wires to make this setup run and drive.
A 5.7 with an overdrive and 3.91 gears makes for a fun car and will cost $4-6K less to put in. We did a 5.7L swap in a friends '69 cuda very cheaply. Granted we did all of the work in house. I also tossed a 125K mile 5.7L into the '55 for a year as a science project. That was years ago but the total cost was $2200 as everything was salvaged from a wrecked ram.
The only real downer is that the new engine will never have the lope of a cammed 440 (you can fake it but why).
It comes down to what you want out of the car. A modern engine can sit for 3 months and then start up and drive away in 40 degree weather. I have driven on rod runs from the desert floor at 111 degrees with the ac on up to the mountains where it is 70 with no issues. The modern engine will sit in bumper to bumper traffic for hours with the AC on.
I run a 6.1L hemi that had 50K hard miles on it when I bought it used and I put another 30K on it. I daily drove this car for a year and still drive it 2-3 times a week. This engine with a cam, ported heads and ported intake made 470 at the rear wheels with a tuned factory engine controller. I now run a FAST EFI system and truth be told I should have stuck with the factory parts.
You have an RT car without the numbers matching engine so I say modify it. There are hundreds of "real RTs" that are either projects that will never see the road again or are restored and never driven.
I say put a modern hemi in it followed by an overdrive manual or auto trans and drive the hell out of it. If you use a Mopar 4-speed you will not have to cut the tunnel.
streetmachine
Well-Known Member
Being that's a real R/T I would stick with the 440 even not being numbers matching. The other biggest hurdle you may have to deal with is the camshaft and lifters on the 440. You want to ensure that what you got and depending on what you bought doesn't have any quality control issues. The lifters and camshaft aren't that great on the Gen III Hemis with the failures on MDS engines.
Just to add to this the Gen III Hemi won't be cheap to swap. Lots of little stuff will get you as well. I think on member here had a spreadsheet on a Gen III Hemi Swap. Total came out to around $15k including engine/transmission? The other thing is the Gen III Hemi can sound good but, subjectively speaking I prefer the sound of an old small block or big block over the newer Hemi. I guess you could get some of that back if you found a camshaft to put in the Gen III Hemi I suppose but, I think I'd still prefer the old school sound.
Just to add to this the Gen III Hemi won't be cheap to swap. Lots of little stuff will get you as well. I think on member here had a spreadsheet on a Gen III Hemi Swap. Total came out to around $15k including engine/transmission? The other thing is the Gen III Hemi can sound good but, subjectively speaking I prefer the sound of an old small block or big block over the newer Hemi. I guess you could get some of that back if you found a camshaft to put in the Gen III Hemi I suppose but, I think I'd still prefer the old school sound.
Runcharger
Well-Known Member
I ran 400 and 440 trucks for decades and they always got me home. These 2 trucks have both had cam and lifter issues as well as the computer bricking on the red one. Please don't tell me how great the new engines are. Lets talk about how easy it is to change lifters on the 2 different style of engines as well.
If you put a 6.4 in, you’ll want the ZF TorqFlite A8 too right? (Don’t bother with the Getrag 5). Show us the size of the hole you have to cut when gutting the R/T. Put efi on the 440.
Yes they will fail if running the 5/20 weight that is recommended.
Cojohnso1
Well-Known Member
The Gen III is still a small block. And small blocks have no business in a GTX. You want a hemi? Get a real one. Gen II. Yes you are going to pay twice as much. But money is evil. And can only be cleansed by ringing thru something pure. Like a GTX with a RB hemi.
JMHO.
JMHO.
Sam69sat
Well-Known Member
If you do go with a 6.4, maybe stellantis can sell you a "simulated sound module" to make it sound like a 440. Not sure if they sell that but maybe...
www.roadandtrack.com
Listen to the Dodge Charger Daytona SRT EV's Simulated Exhaust
We're not sure how to feel about this.
mopar5150
Well-Known Member
Yes the lifter issue is a known one with known solutions. It however does not plague the entire engine line and your bad luck is much less common then 150K good runners. A quick search on ebay will show you 5.7L trucks for sale with 175 to 345k miles on them.
I am sorry you got two in a row, that sucks.
I have owned hemi engines and Dodge rams since the dreaded 2003, dual controller, drop valve seat ones up to the 2020 we own now. Yes, changing lifters will require pulling the heads and since we are bitching about the gen3, the head and main cap bolts are not reusable.
This in my mind is still a much better option than 60yo sealing, ignition and cooling designs used in the B/RB engines.
mopar5150
Well-Known Member
I know, that sound thing is so dumb it hurts me to think they actually made it. The car looks nice though.If you do go with a 6.4, maybe stellantis can sell you a "simulated sound module" to make it sound like a 440. Not sure if they sell that but maybe...
Listen to the Dodge Charger Daytona SRT EV's Simulated Exhaust
We're not sure how to feel about this.
440 Source
Member
We keep over 161,000 Big Block Mopar parts on the shelf ready to ship to you within 24 hours. Nothing about building a Big Block Mopar should be hard to find if you check out our web store: -440 Source
Purepony
Well-Known Member
I purchased a few things from you guys that I really needed but I mean t like over the counter. You guys are cool but I can’t drive to Vegas and there are some parts that aren’t available like the 402 oil pan I needed that you guys didn’t have at the time. You guys tried but at that time you didn’t have it, you had an oil pan that would have worked but then I had to change the pick up tube.
If you have the time sure no worries but sometimes you need that part right away.
Every situations different and I see your point
440 Source
Member
We do remember that, and we are going to carry the actual 402 pan in the future for guys in your situation where they want to re-use the original pickup, or want the "402" stamping for a restoration... or other reasons similar to that. Thanks for the feedback!
Purepony
Well-Known Member
No worries. You guys are awesome !
Dennis Weden
Well-Known Member
When was your car built?
Don Coats
Member
I am going to rebuild a 440, and I just bought a 413 1962 I think, from Imperial , engine is said to be in pretty good shape.. If I can combine all of my pile of engines, and have heads, went to garage and took a picture of the # on some heads I bought long time ago, 2406518, looked it up, said it was from a 1964 426 2.08/188 max wedge 86cc. well Im not a expert at all, also have one of the purple cams from many years ago, in the box, so hope to put it all to together and have something good, any input on the heads would be great.. have 67 charger 383, 72 Monaco, 71 charger, well body, so any thing?
Gunner1
Well-Known Member
Got my CNC Stealths in 2 days.
Dodge Bros
Well-Known Member
My advice: Sell your rare 426 max wedge heads to someone that has an era correct max wedge project and buy a set of Stealth heads from 440 source.
Don Coats
Member
Thanks, what are these heads worth, old ones, and how much for the new style. I have the purple cam also, new in box, Have to go and get the #'s DC
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