Can a High Volume oil pump suck the floor up?

[moparedtn]

When I put the 440Source repro 70-71 hemi pan (6 quart capacity +1 for filter) on my 440:
Oil Pan - 6 quart - 66-72B Body / 70-74E Body - EXTRA THICK
it has the exact same sump depth as a stock "hemi" pan (from rail to bottom of pan is 5").
They mention keeping the pickup about 1/4"-3/8" above the bottom of pan in that description, please note.

Upon their suggestion, I also bought one of those rectangular-headed pickups for use with this new "extra thick"
pan - but once I got under the car and started checking things out, I found out pretty quickly that my existing
pickup (a factory round-headed jobber) could easily be slightly bent to get it to sit right where they suggested, too.
That raised a question for me - was the pan I already had (standard 4 quart) the same depth as this new 6qt?

Yep, sure is - that's my old 4qt on the left, the new 6qt on the right.
I made the decision to keep using the stock pickup, cleaned it real well, then tweaked it to sit just a hair above
the bottom of the new pan.

I've still got a brand new shiny pickup if anyone needs it, by the way.

 

[Kern Dog]

Rick Ehrenberg said that the original oil pickups were supposed to rest on the pan floor because they had a unique design at the bottom.

That recess in the middle and at 6 to 9 o clock allow the oil to be pulled in. The Milodon screened pickups have no recess in them so they are supposed to be between 1/4" to 1/2" from the pan floor.

 

[33 IMP]

The last aftermarket pickup I bought (for a c-word engine) had a 1/4 tab that hung below the screen.
The idea was to make sure there was at least a 1/4" gap between the pickup and the pan bottom. (NOT to make sure the pan didn't suck up, but to make sure if the pickup moved it wouldn't fall down to the pan.)

I would suspect that the reason your pickup is high might be because of how the pickup threads are cut in your block.
3/8 block converted to a 1/2" pickup?

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Sounds like you're praising the builder and questioning his intelligence and ability all at the same time? I'd leave it where it was, you're nit picking over 1/8 ".

Jcc 62 That's a light reflecting off the bottom of the tube in the box.

Remcharger. That's exactly it, I was thinking with such a liquid scenario, how could 1/8 make a difference. Yes, the builder who I unfortunately have no more ties with, assembled Ford pro-stock motors for a big team. Maybe there's a practice in that camp to keep the PU's 1/2" off the bottom.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

When I put the 440Source repro 70-71 hemi pan (6 quart capacity +1 for filter) on my 440:
Oil Pan - 6 quart - 66-72B Body / 70-74E Body - EXTRA THICK
it has the exact same sump depth as a stock "hemi" pan (from rail to bottom of pan is 5").
They mention keeping the pickup about 1/4"-3/8" above the bottom of pan in that description, please note.

Upon their suggestion, I also bought one of those rectangular-headed pickups for use with this new "extra thick"
pan - but once I got under the car and started checking things out, I found out pretty quickly that my existing
pickup (a factory round-headed jobber) could easily be slightly bent to get it to sit right where they suggested, too.
That raised a question for me - was the pan I already had (standard 4 quart) the same depth as this new 6qt?
View attachment 1818924
Yep, sure is - that's my old 4qt on the left, the new 6qt on the right.
I made the decision to keep using the stock pickup, cleaned it real well, then tweaked it to sit just a hair above
the bottom of the new pan.

I've still got a brand new shiny pickup if anyone needs it, by the way.
View attachment 1818927

Is that an adapter of some kind on the threaded part of your Milodon pick up?

The last aftermarket pickup I bought (for a c-word engine) had a 1/4 tab that hung below the screen.
The idea was to make sure there was at least a 1/4" gap between the pickup and the pan bottom. (NOT to make sure the pan didn't suck up, but to make sure if the pickup moved it wouldn't fall down to the pan.)

I would suspect that the reason your pickup is high might be because of how the pickup threads are cut in your block.
3/8 block converted to a 1/2" pickup?

Nope. I thought it was a 1/2" thread pick up because from the bottom of the car, it looked that way by the size of the tube. It's a bonafide 3/8 pick up as I found out when I removed it and saw the swaged part by the threads thereby fooling the naked eye.
As far as the builder, I honestly thought by the popular figures and practices mentioned here, that he may have screwed up on the measurements. It pays to investigate every corner and cranny before cementing a comment.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

What I find different between these two pick ups is that the original (black anodized one) has the actual tube entering the pick up box from the very top whereas the new stainless pick up has the tube entering through the side wall of the pick up box, thus keeping the tube lower and closer to the bottom.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

To add more cooking oil to the fire, here's another mention. LOL. I can see this whole thing turning into a food for thought fight. LOL.

NO NO NO!!!!! 1/4" is way too tight. Please don't set it to that.

3/8" min. 1/2" max. I shoot for 7/16"

sure 1/8", 1/4" etc will work, but here's what will happen...

Your oil pressure will be fine at idle and lower rpm's, but as soon as RPM's comes up, they wont be enough space between the pan and pick up for the oil. The pick-up that won't get any oil to pump cavitates as it spins and fails to pump oil, and results in oil pressure drops untill rpms are lowered no matter how much oil is over the pick-up


Use a sliding T square to check clearance. Turn pan upside down, lay gasket on it and measure from the bottom of the pan's sump to the top of gasket.. Write number down

Place gasket on engine block's pan rail, now measure from top of gasket to the top of oil pickup... Write number down.

The diff in the 2 numbers is your clearance.

Move pick up till you get 3/8" to 1/2" clearance

 

[Budnicks]

A related video on MotorTrend TV
or Tubi or Max etc.
Engine Masters season 5 episode 3, Pantastic News
covers what oil does in the pan & running
they did cover the pick up height slightly IIRC too
adding extra oil, is not a great idea in many cases depending on the pan
you can get bad windage & aerate the oil easier,
the higher up or nearer to the crank, the oil is...

Grant you it's a BBC, shouldn't matter oil & windage or submerged is still oil
(a BB Chrysler or Hemi rotor style Mellings HV/HP Oil pump,
will have even higher oil pressure usually)
making like;
850-870hp single 4 bbl big Brodix 'oval port' heads/intake
N/A 4.5" bore & 3.76" stroke (427/396cid stroke/same as 440 or Hemi)= 478cid
it'd be even worse the bigger the stroke gets, if it had a 454 crank 4" stroke
or a stroker 4.25" or 4.5" stroker assembly, be even worse

Even with a $1,500 Moroso kick out trick pan, with a screen type windage tray
(watch the episode, well worth it)
well away from the crankshaft (even in the trick hi-dollar aluminum specialized pan)
even with the oil way away from the crank
it actually robbed power 'with more oil'
the pan mfgr (Moroso IIRC) said/suggested 6.5 qts to 7.5 qts, total
(IIRC ? not including the filter cap.)
they ran it with 7 qts, happy medium level, & it started to aerate really bad
& oil pressure dropped off severely at like 6,500-7k rpm,
IIRC they added like a 1/2 qt, to error on the side of caution 1st, mfgr suggestion
& it got worse, aeration/windage
then;
they took a qt out, now 6.5 qts (IIRC) ran it again,
& it improved but still lost pressure in the upper rpms over 6,500 IIRC
still aerating the oil,
they then took another qt out, now it's at 5.5 qts total (IIRC),
in a 8 qt advertised drag race style kick out pan
it was rock solid to 7,500rpm & climbing higher, & it made 30-40 more HP too..

if nothing else it's a great episode covers a bunch of the old wives tales about oil

a good oil pan is well worth the $$$,
they picked up 40 HP on the lower oil level test too
literally like free power,
how much $$$ are you going to spend, to make an extra 40 hp ?
I think $1,500 is a bargain, saves the engine & makes some extra power
Oil can rob power, I tell people that & I get the eyes rolled deal, they don't believe it
old wives tales/or some old time racer said , are hard to get past
don't listen & go ahead break you ****, ruin your bearings or blow it up...

oh well
food for thought

there was a caveat;
it could be a bit different in a drag car, (maybe 1/2 qt or so more ?)
hard accelerations/launches throwing/the inertia of the oil to rear of the sump/or area of the pick up
& slamming/sloshing it/oil to the front under hard deceleration, braking or a parachute etc.
even with a high dollar pan & sump with doors

 

[Curiousyellow71]

What I find different between these two pick ups is that the original (black anodized one) has the actual tube entering the pick up box from the very top whereas the new stainless pick up has the tube entering through the side wall of the pick up box, thus keeping the tube lower and closer to the bottom.

View attachment 1818990

View attachment 1818991

The window of the inlet area is considerably more on the bottom one. Whether that will ever make any difference is hard to say. From an engineering aspect..I like it.

On your new pan how are the baffles working? Is the pickup clear towards the back with a lip to keep the oil in place? Does it have a door that shuts when you brake but opens to let the oil to the pickup at the launch? I don't see where most if not all baffled pans should make the distance of the pickup less critical?
I also found a couple post about distance on the pickup to the pan. Both point towards leaving it at 1/2".

 

[Dave6T4]

Trying to understand the PU pictured above. What exactly does that ring in the screen indicate directly below the tube?

It is the end of the round pick-up tube, that is welded to square pick-up, as seen through the screen.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

A related video on MotorTrend TV
or Tubi or Max etc.
Engine Masters season 5 episode 3, Pantastic News
covers what oil does in the pan & running
they did cover the pick up height slightly IIRC too
adding extra oil, is not a great idea in many cases depending on the pan
you can get bad windage & aerate the oil easier,
the higher up or nearer to the crank, the oil is...

Grant you it's a BBC, shouldn't matter oil & windage or submerged is still oil
(a BB Chrysler or Hemi rotor style Mellings HV/HP Oil pump,
will have even higher oil pressure usually)
making like;
850-870hp single 4 bbl big Brodix 'oval port' heads/intake
N/A 4.5" bore & 3.76" stroke (427/396cid stroke/same as 440 or Hemi)= 478cid
it'd be even worse the bigger the stroke gets, if it had a 454 crank 4" stroke
or a stroker 4.25" or 4.5" stroker assembly, be even worse

Even with a $1,500 Moroso kick out trick pan, with a screen type windage tray
(watch the episode, well worth it)
well away from the crankshaft (even in the trick hi-dollar aluminum specialized pan)
even with the oil way away from the crank
it actually robbed power 'with more oil'
the pan mfgr (Moroso IIRC) said/suggested 6.5 qts to 7.5 qts, total
(IIRC ? not including the filter cap.)
they ran it with 7 qts, happy medium level, & it started to aerate really bad
& oil pressure dropped off severely at like 6,500-7k rpm,
IIRC they added like a 1/2 qt, to error on the side of caution 1st, mfgr suggestion
& it got worse, aeration/windage
then;
they took a qt out, now 6.5 qts (IIRC) ran it again,
& it improved but still lost pressure in the upper rpms over 6,500 IIRC
still aerating the oil,
they then took another qt out, now it's at 5.5 qts total (IIRC),
in a 8 qt advertised drag race style kick out pan
it was rock solid to 7,500rpm & climbing higher, & it made 30-40 more HP too..

if nothing else it's a great episode covers a bunch of the old wives tales about oil

a good oil pan is well worth the $$$,
they picked up 40 HP on the lower oil level test too
literally like free power,
how much $$$ are you going to spend, to make an extra 40 hp ?
I think $1,500 is a bargain, saves the engine & makes some extra power
Oil can rob power, I tell people that & I get the eyes rolled deal, they don't believe it
old wives tales/or some old time racer said , are hard to get past
don't listen & go ahead break you ****, ruin your bearings or blow it up...

oh well
food for thought

there was a caveat;
it could be a bit different in a drag car, (maybe 1/2 qt or so more ?)
hard accelerations/launches throwing/the inertia of the oil to rear of the sump/or area of the pick up
& slamming/sloshing it/oil to the front under hard deceleration, braking or a parachute etc.
even with a high dollar pan & sump with doors

Now that was a very informative episode. Fantastic. they didn't speak on pick up distances, but elaborated well on windage, oil levels and aerating. Wish the tests could be done on a real world car launching and aborting. Oil pressure is important of course.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

The window of the inlet area is considerably more on the bottom one. Whether that will ever make any difference is hard to say. From an engineering aspect..I like it.

On your new pan how are the baffles working? Is the pickup clear towards the back with a lip to keep the oil in place? Does it have a door that shuts when you brake but opens to let the oil to the pickup at the launch? I don't see where most if not all baffled pans should make the distance of the pickup less critical?
I also found a couple post about distance on the pickup to the pan. Both point towards leaving it at 1/2".

View attachment 1819111

View attachment 1819117

This is what exactly was perplexing to me at first. Why was the black anodized pick up 1/2" above the floor and my engine ran well and healthy all these years? (I must add that I am not running it hard like I used to because of the lack of time, tracks and life getting in between, but I'm trying to get out with it as much as I can)

Perhaps I am overthinking this?

Perhaps there is confusion as to a stock capacity pan/oil pick up floor distance measurements compared to a deep 7 qt pan?

Do stock type pans need less pick up clearance than a deep sump pan?

Below is a really bad picture from the internet of my baffle ledges and trap door. Baffle ledge lengths are shorter than the ones in the steel pan it is replacing.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Both inlet boxes on the pick ups are the same exact sizes. The tubes enter differently though.

 

[j-c-c-62]

It is the end of the round pick-up tube, that is welded to square pick-up, as seen through the screen.

So then what purpose does the screen serve outside the tube?
The picture appears to show the tube then in direct contact with the screen, and the screen even appears slightly concave in the center of the tube.
That makes little sense to me.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

So then what purpose does the screen serve outside the tube?
The picture appears to show the tube then in direct contact with the screen, and the screen even appears slightly concave in the center of the tube.
That makes little sense to me.

No, it's an optical illusion. I will repost clearer pictures.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

It does make sense that if you have less oil to utilize it becomes more important to access as much of it as you can. But, when you are adding a couple quart of capacity to the pan...that is a huge gain in the available oil.
You certainly could do a minimum spec on the pickup on a deep pan. But, we are only talking a small amount of gain. I guess one way to think about it..is there a gain from having it slightly more off the floor? There's certainly situations that it's good 2 have more clearance. Maybe there's something in the oil that you would rather have sitting on the bottom of the pan..then run through the engine. But this is a Mopar...that only happens to chevies and Frds.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

It does make sense that if you have less oil to utilize it becomes more important to access as much of it as you can. But, when you are adding a couple quart of capacity to the pan that is a huge gain in the available oil.
You certainly could do a minimum spec on the pickup on a deep pan. But, we are only talking a small amount of gain. I guess one way to think about it..is there a gain from having it slightly more off the floor? There's certainly situations that it's good 2 have more clearance. Maybe theres something in the oil that you would rather have sitting on the bottom of the pan..then run through the engine. But this is a Mopar...that only happens to chevies and Frds.

Word!

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Here are the two screened entry boxes. Same size in all directions.

 

[moparedtn]

Is that an adapter of some kind on the threaded part of your Milodon pick up?

Exactly as received from 440Source. It's a 1/2" pickup tube adapted down to 3/8" as from the supplier, looks like.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Here's the old black anodized pick up that was set at 1/2" height off the floor. Note the tube entry at top side.