1965 Plymouth 2% A/FX cars

[HEMI-ITIS]

LOOK at those prices!!

 

[fullmetaljacket]

LOOK at those prices!!

Times have changed and so have materials along with their prices. Today's carbon fiber parts are the lightest and yet heavy on the wallet. LOL..

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Times have changed and so have materials along with their prices. Today's carbon fiber parts are the lightest and yet heavy on the wallet. LOL..

Here's another article plucked from my archives with a little more in depth info on the '64 2% program through the lens of The Ramchargers car itself. The reason that I brought up suspect memos and or fact doubting when it comes to these cars and their parts is how a question was asked in this particular article and the answer was rather dodging.

Question: Is it true that you guys had rear deck lids made out of lead for traction advantages?

The answer was: "We didn't have lead in the trunk".

My suspicion is: Material of the deck lid was in question, not what was actually in the trunk itself. HHHHMMmmmmmm.

 

[gooser]

i recall a few articles on how some of the teams cheat one was filling the spare tire with water instead of air another was taking every other spring out of the seats still another was some body made a pair of front brake drums out of fiberglass no front brakes a little lighter

 

[topside]

Cheating ? I think of it as "better than legal", haha, as in what Smokey Yunick used to say: if the rules don't say I can't do it, it's fair game...
Lead was popular to add in the rear: backside of the bumper, in the tail lamp housings, or reputedly in the Satellite trim panels that a couple guys added to their '65s.
Early Bs were pretty light in their tails, and they didn't have the slicks we have now, so weight distribution was a target of opportunity, one could say.
My ex-Hamburger SS/IA Duster's tail lamps weighed about 45 lbs each but had space for bulbs, and one of the team cars had a double trunk floor & carried lead shot in its rear rails.
I love that functional creativity, it's fascinating.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Cheating ? I think of it as "better than legal", haha, as in what Smokey Yunick used to say: if the rules don't say I can't do it, it's fair game...
Lead was popular to add in the rear: backside of the bumper, in the tail lamp housings, or reputedly in the Satellite trim panels that a couple guys added to their '65s.
Early Bs were pretty light in their tails, and they didn't have the slicks we have now, so weight distribution was a target of opportunity, one could say.
My ex-Hamburger SS/IA Duster's tail lamps weighed about 45 lbs each but had space for bulbs, and one of the team cars had a double trunk floor & carried lead shot in its rear rails.
I love that functional creativity, it's fascinating.

Yes, yes. I'm well aware of all the buckshot lead ingeniously hidden throughout the rear ends. What is suspect are parts that supposedly were never made but some how popped up on certain cars. I bet that Ramcharger was stinking more than a skunk with special one of none parts.
I love the mystery and the voodoo behind such improvisations. I bet the '65 2% cars could have been really sneaky, but with the radical 10/15 wheelbase cars being tooled up across town, they must have abandoned many concepts.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Cheating ? I think of it as "better than legal", haha, as in what Smokey Yunick used to say: if the rules don't say I can't do it, it's fair game...
Lead was popular to add in the rear: backside of the bumper, in the tail lamp housings, or reputedly in the Satellite trim panels that a couple guys added to their '65s.
Early Bs were pretty light in their tails, and they didn't have the slicks we have now, so weight distribution was a target of opportunity, one could say.
My ex-Hamburger SS/IA Duster's tail lamps weighed about 45 lbs each but had space for bulbs, and one of the team cars had a double trunk floor & carried lead shot in its rear rails.
I love that functional creativity, it's fascinating.

Here's an example of the cross pollination of parts and or ideas, thus adding more fuel to the fire of confusion.
As y'all can see, this looks like a standard wheelbase '65 Plymouth and just faintly visible on the car's rooftop is what looks to be a 10/15 AFX type Hemi scoop which had a much more raised opening compared to the regular SS versions found on A990's. Also take note to the bubble windshield and the ventless /wingless glass door which could be either a ventless AFX fiberglass version, an A-990 thin gauge steel version modified to be ventless or an original ventless aluminum 2% FX version repurposed from the year before. As y'all may know, both '64 and '65 doors are interchangeable.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Here's an example of the cross pollination of parts and or ideas, thus adding more fuel to the fire of confusion.
As y'all can see, this looks like a standard wheelbase '65 Plymouth wearing what looks to be a 10/15 AFX type Hemi scoop which had a much more raised opening compared to the regular SS versions found on A990's. Also take note to the ventless /wingless glass door which could be either an AFX fiberglass version modified to be ventless, an A990 thin gauge steel version modified to be ventless or an aluminum 2% FX version repurposed from the year before. As y'all may know, both '64 and '65 doors are interchangeable.

View attachment 1396265

Here's the same Dick Housey Plymouth sporting a (low profile) A990 Hemi scoop and doors with vent windows. A lot was going on on a monthly, weekly and hourly basis back then. Some cars such as this Dick Housey contender and situated downriver, most probably feasted on all the new incoming parts considering its proximity to all the factory midnight action.

 

[Big bill]

Very cool pic.

 

[Big bill]

Not the best pic .

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Not the best pic .

View attachment 1398233

That's the closest and best pic I've seen of one of the '65 FXr's. Even that scoop looks a tad suspiciously experimental as far as height is concerned. Perhaps the scoop is at the midway point before going bonkers with the 10/15 squad.

 

[topside]

Looks like the 10/15 scoop to me - guess Roger was near the front of the line for some parts...
One of the deepest oil pans I've seen, too.

 

[Dave6T4]

I just latched onto this thread. There is a lot of interesting information here on these '64/'65 cars. It sounds like there were a lot of balls in the air during this period. I remember my first sighting of one of these AWB '65's. In the late '60's, I moved to St. Thomas, Ontario to work at Canadian Timken. There was a Drag strip at nearby Sparta. In 1969, I bought a new 383 SuperBee coupe, replacing my '62 Dart coupe that I had put a 383/4-speed into. I started frequenting the Wednesday night "Run What You Brung" test and tune sessions. These Wednesday night events were pretty unstructured and you could grudge race your buddies cars, regardless of what NHRA class they may have fit into on weekend racing. With the track's location half way between Detroit and Buffalo, quite often U.S. cars would show up here for tuning sessions or trying out new combo's far away from competitive prying eyes.
One Wednesday night, (it would be 1969 or 1970), I spotted a car unlike anything I had ever seen before. It had the tapered "c"-pillar of the 2-door hardtop, but had the "b"-post and door of a 2-door sedan! I knew it was a '65, but forget now whether it was a Plymouth or Dodge. '65 Belvedere's and Coronet's were never sold in Canada, so even a stock one was a rare sighting up here. I do remember that it had a 426 Hemi in it, and that it had a short wheelbase. Since I had already owned 1962 and 1963 Dodges, I was familiar with early B-bodies, and this car definitely looked strange to me. I thought it was home made at the time, but later realized it was an AWB. Of course, by that time, it would no longer be competitive in the class it was designed for. I am pretty sure the car was from Detroit, but do not know whose it was. On that same night, in attendance was a 1962 Chrysler 2-door hardtop equipped with a Hemi and a Clutch Flight. These two cars were parked together, so I figured the owners were friends.

 

[topside]

^^^ Interesting - do you recall what color it was ? The '65 Dodge flat/blunt front end is quite different from the Plymouth's but maybe you didn't see that view.
Maybe it was the white Plymouth mule car, though I would think its testing happened in secrecy so Ford wouldn't know about it until the other cars were built & debuted.

Oh duh - spaced out on the date you saw it - sorry and never mind.

 

[Dave6T4]

No, this was late enough (1970?) that is was no longer competitive in class. Just an old racer that by that time was maybe just a bracket racer or gasser. But at least it survived that long. Again, I don't recall much about the car other than the unusual body/roof line and the Hemi. I don't think it had much of a paint job on it.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Looks like the 10/15 scoop to me - guess Roger was near the front of the line for some parts...
One of the deepest oil pans I've seen, too.

Based on the pics below which are original images of the 558 mule car, I'm hunching that they (Chrysler) were experimenting with heights or PERHAPS Plaza fiberglass was not following the heights to the T and just happened to make the scoops a hair higher for the 10/15 cars as compared to the scoops on the FX 2% cars. But as you say Topside, that '65 2% could be a 10/15 scoop. Of course this is all just a hunch since so many of the records are fractured. Fascinating history, analysts, and theories all thrown into one.

 

[MoparMur]

Totally amazing and fully interesting conversation. Thank you all for contributing your knowledge, material, and also speculations/theories. Can never get enough of this!

 

[topside]

The actual Mule was a white Plymouth. The Dodge photo appears to be an unfinished car, missing the simple cover below the bumper that hid the K frame.
The "steeper" scoop came after the RO/WO scoop, so it would seem to have been a further development (larger opening, steeper angle).
In those photos, it looks like the oil pan is higher, and the top of the left carb as well ?
Also, note the address on the building, 2191 Cole...rabbit hole !

 

[rmchrgr]

Also, note the address on the building, 2191 Cole...rabbit hole !

Not surprisingly, someone's already been down it. It's the Amblewagon facility. As always, Google is one's friend.

The place was in Birmingham, MI. See the address at the bottom of the sheet - 2191 Cole Street.

 

[topside]

Aha - thanks; I googled the address but guessed "Detroit", not knowing the suburbs, and didn't think of trying "Amblewagon".
The Mule was built @ Chrysler's Woodward Garage, with Amblewagon subsequently doing the conversion work on all but a couple of the initial/contract-racer cars (Missile VII Plymouth & Flynn's Dodge sedan).