440 back together but runs bad...

[PRHeads]

On a Mopar, when you install the cam so the bottom keyway is at 12 and top gear is at 6(or 12), the cam is advanced 2.5 teeth.
This is about 35*.
Many(most?) builds with a performance cam don’t have enough valve to piston clearance to accommodate the cam being advanced 35*, and if the motor has been run like this, it’s not uncommon to end up with bent intake valves.
If the valves are bent, it will show up on a leak down test.

The motors will run with the cam installed like this, but they don’t run well....... and I have seen it a number of times where they kind of just shut off at high throttle settings as the rpm goes up(3500-4500).

 

[ckessel]

Remember too that on a b motor, the distributor rotates counterclockwise. Did you orient the wires for that or clockwise?

 

[INTMD8]

Amount of people that think a cam can be 180 out is absolutely killing me.

 

[padam]

In theory, isnt it possible to install it out 180 degrees of crank rotation?

 

[1 Wild R/T]

In theory, isnt it possible to install it out 180 degrees of crank rotation?

Yes, even in practice... But that would put the dot on the cam gear at 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock....

 

[padam]

 

[INTMD8]

In theory, isnt it possible to install it out 180 degrees of crank rotation?

If you install the cam and crank at 12 and 12 the next crank revolution the cam will be at 6 and crank at 12.

So, cam is constantly "180 out" while running as it spins half crank speed.

Only thing wrong about installing it at 12 and 12 would be where you stab the distributor.

But, at this point, put it on #1 compression stroke TDC and aim the distributor at one.

 

[padam]

But if you install at 6 and 6, you have 4 new combinations

 

[INTMD8]

I thought we were talking about post #1 but yeah I'm sure we could also get into how many ways can it be screwed up.

 

[PRHeads]

The dots at 6-6 have the cam installed with the crankshaft installed 180* out(BDC).

And as has been said already, that will put the dot on the top gear at 3 or 9, when the crank is positioned at TDC(you know....... the position that puts the dot on the bottom gear at 12).

If you’re degreeing the cam, the dots are merely a convenience to get you close.

If there were no dots, what would you do?
To get close....... set the piston at TDC........ set the cam at split overlap........ install timing set.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

If there were no dots, what would you do?
To get close....... set the piston at TDC........ set the cam at split overlap........ install timing set.

And by the same token something I've done to confirm the cam timing is close to correct is to set #1 at the split point and see if the damper is at TDC.... I have in the past laid my fingers on #1 intake & exhaust rockers & have a second person use a breaker bar to turn the engine over, the exhaust valve opens then closes... As it is closing I pay attention to the intake, the moment I feel movement on the intake I mark the damper, then continue turning in normal rotation till the exhaust stops moving, mark the damper, split the distance between those marks & you should be @ TDC....

Not as accurate as dial indicators & degree wheels but it'll get you close enough to know if your looking in the right direction....

 

[PRHeads]

I thought I’d add one little tidbit to the “180 out” thing......

If you install the distributor so it’s on #1 firing, when the timing set dots are at 6 and 12........ the distributor will be 180* out.

If you turn the motor over so you’re on TDC and the rotor is pointing at #1..........
When you pull the timing cover off a BBM(and others), the dots will be at 12 and 12.

 

[69ChargerR/TSE]

I thought I’d add one little tidbit to the “180 out” thing......

If you install the distributor so it’s on #1 firing, when the timing set dots are at 6 and 12........ the distributor will be 180* out.

If you turn the motor over so you’re on TDC and the rotor is pointing at #1..........
When you pull the timing cover off a BBM(and others), the dots will be at 12 and 12.

I have a question. My 440, I just replaced the water pump and pulled the timing chain cover, and my timing chain gears were both at 12, and my distributor was pointing at 1. I turned the crank and lined up the dots Cam 6, crank 12, and my distributor was pointing at I guess 6, 180 from 1, I used a camera and saw #1 piston was at the top.
If I'd kept rotating it, until the piston cycled, and checked TDC would my rotor point at 1 on the cap?
Car runs and drives. Just wondering if it's run with the distributor 180 out.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

I have a question. My 440, I just replaced the water pump and pulled the timing chain cover, and my timing chain gears were both at 12, and my distributor was pointing at 1. I turned the crank and lined up the dots Cam 6, crank 12, and my distributor was pointing at I guess 6, 180 from 1, I used a camera and saw #1 piston was at the top.
If I'd kept rotating it, until the piston cycled, and checked TDC would my rotor point at 1 on the cap?
Car runs and drives. Just wondering if it's run with the distributor 180 out.

No... It's at the top (end) of the exhaust stroke about to begin the intake stroke...

 

[threewood]

If you set it up 6 o'clock, 12 o'clock, and stabbed the distributor and wired it for #1 TDC it will be 180° off. If, however, you wired it for #6 TDC it will be correct.

Rotate the motor over to #1 TDC, and see where the rotor is pointing. Should be at #1 plug.

And to verify. Did you degree in the cam with a pointer and degree wheel?

 

[oldkimmer]

If u degrees the cam then everything is right. Dots at crank 12 and cam at 6 u r on number 6 firing. 12 and 12 u r at number 1 firing. Explain how u adjusted the lifters and how u measured the push rod length. Back off the rockers to zero lash. See how it rubs then. Kim

 

[69ChargerR/TSE]

No... It's at the top (end) of the exhaust stroke about to begin the intake stroke...

View attachment 1331613

Piston is at the top,
Timing mark TDC
Rotor is at 1

If needed: I can stick a camera into the intake to look at the valves.

 

[69ChargerR/TSE]

If u degrees the cam then everything is right. Dots at crank 12 and cam at 6 u r on number 6 firing. 12 and 12 u r at number 1 firing. Explain how u adjusted the lifters and how u measured the push rod length. Back off the rockers to zero lash. See how it rubs then. Kim

I didn't.
The car is running, I only added EFI and a new distributor.
I just replaced the cooling system, and pulled the timing chain cover, to replace the timing chain, it was already replaced at some point, so I didn't mess with it. I replaced the seal and gasket.