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440 rebuild

Exhaust will be custom, with magnaflow components after engine is done, and its not in the price I mentioned before. Sorry forgot to mention that. :)
About hp. Now it has 4.29 (109mm) pistons. Cant measure stroke, because block and crank still is at machinist.
 
Everything I have heard and read says that to make horsepower the best investment you can make is a good set of aluminum heads. It's all about flow.
 
Ok.
I guess there are more benefits for aftermarket/AL heads than original. Since its not a #'s matching block then I can search some pair of new heads. Suggestions?

Block number is 3698830-440.
Seems to me originally it has 220 or 275hp which is bad.
 
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I love these guys on Engine Masters. They make this stuff fun. Here is a good video.

 
Artis said:
Ok.
I guess there are more benefits for aftermarket/AL heads than original. Since its not a #'s matching block then I can search some pair of new heads. Suggestions?

Block number is 3698830-440.
Seems to me originally it has 220 or 275hp which is bad.
Click to expand...

What piston are you going with?
 
Thanks SimDog for source.
Its getting easyer for me - new heads it is.
Need to find out what cc volume needed ( good old (Vd+Vc)/Vc=CR ). If Im right, I need to stay under 10.1:1 for street use, am I correct?
 
Your budget is short IMO. You can use stock replacement pistons, and to the bare minimum wiuth what you have. Nothing that will be any real improvement past stock with a camshaft. Some quick figures: block machining - $1800 give or take; $1000 in hard parts for the lower end; $2200 for AL heads, $1300 for iron; $1500 for valvetrain and manifolding; $400 in misc parts; $500 to assemble = $7400, or $6500 for iron. That would give you a solid lower end with hypereutectic pistons, a solid balance job, either ready to bolt on AL or iron heads, new parts for things like fuel and water pumps, all the misc parts like oil pump drive, etc. These are the differences between the average build and what you want.
 
moper said:
Your budget is short IMO. You can use stock replacement pistons, and to the bare minimum wiuth what you have. Nothing that will be any real improvement past stock with a camshaft. Some quick figures: block machining - $1800 give or take; $1000 in hard parts for the lower end; $2200 for AL heads, $1300 for iron; $1500 for valvetrain and manifolding; $400 in misc parts; $500 to assemble = $7400, or $6500 for iron. That would give you a solid lower end with hypereutectic pistons, a solid balance job, either ready to bolt on AL or iron heads, new parts for things like fuel and water pumps, all the misc parts like oil pump drive, etc. These are the differences between the average build and what you want.
Click to expand...

He's not building a street racer. I'm building the exact same thing he wants and it's no where near your figures.
 
That's nice for both of you. You're in OK. I'm in CT. Maybe I should have put "your results may vary"? Maybe you're not considering every nut, bolt, wire, plug, correct engine paint, etc as new?
I read his post as someone that wants more. "More" costs more. simple economics. It costs because the parts are more expensive, and it costs because some parts beget more parts. I've done cheaper builds too - with results on par with what's invested. As long as the expectation is in line with the result, it's all good.
Perfect example - this 273. Basically a ring and bearing job with the crank turned, with no head work, good quality parts used, and everything new including the carb and Pertronix conversion, running, broken in, and ready to drop in. Final bill was just short of $4K. That's with shipping, taxes (@*#!% CT) buying the core, a few specialized 273 parts, 2 oil filters and a case of oil, cam broken in, and labor. If you want an engine that will be in service trouble free for a while, you have to buy the parts and do the work. Simple as that. And it won't be in the car running and ready to rock for his budget. At least not in my opinion.

IMG_2308.JPG IMG_2309.JPG
 
Everything on a rebuild does not have to be new. Get creative and only buy new parts that are absolutely necessary. Example:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-1304-440-mopar-engine-back-to-basics/

I bought a set of barely used aluminum heads for $800. The bargins are out there if you just take time to look. Key to saving is you can't be in a hurry. Horse power comes from the inside of the engine...not the bling on the outside.
 
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SimDog said:
Everything on a rebuild does not have to be new. Get creative and only buy new parts that are absolutely necessary. Example:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-1304-440-mopar-engine-back-to-basics/

I bought a set of barely used aluminum heads for $800. The bargins are out there if you just take time to look. Key to saving is you can't be in a hurry. Horse power comes from the inside of the engine...not the bling on the outside.
Click to expand...

You make some good points. I'll agree that if time is on your side, and you are skilled and knowledgeable on BBM parts and builds, you can do a budget build by cutting some corners and buying used stuff and still make decent power. However, and not to hurt anyone's feelings, not that many guys are that skilled, and few have the patience. I wish I had a $1 for every time a guy gets a great deal on some part that ends up being a turd that either cannot make the power, are gunk, or need a total rework.

What exactly does a barely used set of aluminum heads look like anyways? Unless I personally knew and trusted the source of a set of used heads, I would not buy them and throw them on a performance engine. Why would you do that when you can get new sidewinders that Marsh has gone through for a few hundred bucks more?

You do know that, as interesting as that article is, there is some serious magic in there, and a bunch of costs are not included. The 2355 in a std bore for $125, and a 440 without a ridge is some serious stars lining up. And that is the only combo that you can do that on. The only one. How long are you going to wait for that to occur? It could happen tomorrow, right? But it could be 5 years. How long do you wait until std bore 2355s show up for $125? The reality is that if you are on this forum and just began a motor build and are asking simple build questions, your opportunity to collect good used parts has long passed.

I actually thought about doing a build and article like the one you linked. I could do it very easily and very inexpensively. But the reality is that the used parts that I have available to me is not realistic of what someone could just go out on ebay or craigs list to get. I think it would be a bit disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

But I'll agree, it can probably be done.
 
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Bsb67, you make a lot of valid points. You are correct and just as I stated that time is a factor in cost savings. I've found that sometimes even new parts can be had at a great discount because someone bought parts too early in their build and had to purchase something different for their application. They end up dumping those parts for very little just to recoupe some of the money.
For instance I purchased a NEW full set of 2355s in the original sealed box for $250, not bad for new.

It's only taken me a few months to get some great bargains on new/used parts. I understand that most people won't take the time to do this. All I am saying is if your budget is fixed you can make it work, it just takes time, patience and yes a little bit of luck. The Internet is loaded with information and willing people with a wealth of knowledge.
 
Guys - please stop discuss my budget. :) I just want to understand price/performance opportunities for this engine, and then make discussions for whats better for me and my wallet. :) thanks for your opinions
Back to project - 440
Yesterday talked with my machinist - new rods neded... so what would be the best option to increase compression ratio? And what would be the best CR for street daily driver? As I said - 450hp would be best.
One of my options:
- stock lenght rods, flat pistons, new heads with right cc volume ( 78???)

What would you suggest?
 
Artis said:
Ok.
I guess there are more benefits for aftermarket/AL heads than original. Since its not a #'s matching block then I can search some pair of new heads. Suggestions?

Block number is 3698830-440.
Seems to me originally it has 220 or 275hp which is bad.
Click to expand...

Hey Artis, don't worry, you'll be fine.
1. The main reason the "newer" 440's were down on horsepower is that staring in '72(?) they started reporting rear wheel horsepower (instead of engine horsepower) & compression dropped quite a bit (due to pistons, buy you're changing those).
2. I agree that aluminum heads are cheaper in the long run & many already come with larger valves.
3. 450hp is very possible, maybe 500hp, if you spend your money on cam/pistons/heads and don't "waste" it on chrome valve covers and stuff like that.
 
lewtot184 said:
there isn't any modern design or material that will eliminate slap on a performance piston. it's a nature of the beast.
Click to expand...
my icon pistons were recommended .004 clearance, that`s what I had the block machined for, and it checked almost .0045 when I put it together. No problems or piston slap. Have had the pan off a couple times to fix rear main leak, cylinders look beautiful 1
 
Yeah, I can agree - stock 6.76 rods with ARP/hardened bolts will work for me. Pistons will be KB146, now just waiting answer from my machinist about overbore size.
So far im thinking about:
- KB184 pistons
- Stock rods with ARP bolts
- MP cam 284/484 (thoughts about hydraulic or mechanical?)
- MP electric ign
- Have doubts about heads. If stock are in good condition maby I just leave them. Dont know..
- Magnaflow exhaust 2.5' "H"

About intake - there's no HUGE difference between CH4B and Performer RPM intakes. As I read CH4B will work fine till 600hp, so no need to change.

I think this setup will be good for 420-450hp
 
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Is your machinest going to do the big ends with the new bolts? SPS bolts work just as well and are half the price
Is he going to hang and align your pistons and rods?
NO Way would I run an MP cam this century
what are your questions about the KB146 vs 184 I helped design the reverse deflector pistons
no way would I have a block "finished machined" without the machinist having the pistons in hand
above #41 how do you get 4.29 for pistons?
machinist have a torque plate? If not I can tell you how to fake it
have you checked valves, seats, guides, runout yet
 
Agree on not using that cam, I used one (284/484) in my old 440 with 906 heads... sounded cool, doesn’t perform for **** IMO

Here’s an idle video

 
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