440 rebuild

[Artis]

Is your machinest going to do the big ends with the new bolts? SPS bolts work just as well and are half the price
Is he going to hang and align your pistons and rods?
NO Way would I run an MP cam this century
what are your questions about the KB146 vs 184 I helped design the reverse deflector pistons
no way would I have a block "finished machined" without the machinist having the pistons in hand
above #41 how do you get 4.29 for pistons?
machinist have a torque plate? If not I can tell you how to fake it
have you checked valves, seats, guides, runout yet

Machinest is waiting for bolts and pistons for overbore. I never bore block w/o pistons.
Pistons and rods will be aligned (weight&height)
Which piston will be better for 906 heads? There are different piston quench pad heights ( 146 (+0.075) and 184 (0.140)) and piston head volume. Which piston will give correct CR for street use with pump gas?
#41 post is my mistake, I have STD block, who needs overbore.
No, he havent a torque plate, how can I made it?
Heads are waiting their turn to be assembled - I hope next week.

Please suggest cam. 209/502? im worry about idle.
Thanks!


edit:

My mistake - 292/509 cam

 

[wyrmrider]

When you align the rods you put the assembled piston and rod on a fixture and check for alignment (twist)
did you say what your head volume is we can calculate compression cc both ends of each head and then mill to the smallest making all the same and report results
If you do not have a torque plate you can cut some tubing even 1/2 inch steel water pipe to the length of the head thickness
then using a hard washer and your head bolt torque them down
If you have a dial bore gunge you can see the walls pull in
we did this in the days before torque plates
who needs overbore
I've changed pistons lots of times without a rigid hone followed by a fine flex hone
get out the dial bore gauge and report roundness and taper (and ridge- if any you are looking an a bore job)
do not get ahead of yourself on cam you do not even know your compression yet
which cam are you referring to- one from my list or???
what springs and what lift will they take- if you already have springs that limits the cam
always know the availability of springs before ordering a cam
and if much more than stock lift you may have to lower your guides what seals?
springs
single with dampner
beehive
dual with dampner
dual counterwound
each may take a different retainer

 

[wyrmrider]

on that 209/ 502 note you posted
209 can idle just fine- it is what the small block HP cam is and that one has really long ramps
the 383 HP 325 HP cam was 210 but low lift by today's standards and also long seat duration
[email protected] -Lift
204 420 Edelbrock Performer/ Summit
205 458 comp cams custom
202 461 Mike Jones- asymetrical - great lobe he would pick the exhaust lobe and lca to match the build this lobe has a lot of area under the curve
(for comparison a same duration chevy lobe only gets .434 about the same as a stock non HP 440)
206-475 to get over half inch takes 1.6 rocker (on the intake only) custom Howard
206 Hughes 473- lift 113lca 210 duration on exhaust
208-454 from Voodoo I do not see any other catalog cam in this duration-lift range except Hughes) would work with real 9:1 compression and Iron heads 112lca 213 duration on the exhaust
209-467 Comp custom
209 458 Engle K 52 custom
210-.483 Howard
I do not see anything in this range from Bullet/ ultradyne

looks like the pistons offered earlier in this thread would work for you if the block will clean up at .020 over - with 906 heads

 

[BSB67]

on that 209/ 502 note you posted

Is it possible he meant 292/509?

 

[Artis]

Yes, Im sorry - 292/509 cam

 

[wyrmrider]

oldie but goodie but you don't want it
that was essentially designed as a bracket racing cam for high compression engines
some hard core ran them on the street
what do you figure your compression will be
Incidentally United Engine (KB) has some discontinued pistons
where are you if out of the country I could give them a call as they seemed to have taken the tech sheets down

 

[Artis]

My best compression would be max close to 9.8:1 / 10.0:1 ) Right now I have stock 906 heads.
Whats the max comp. these heads (906) can handle and drive safe on streets?

 

[wyrmrider]

it depends Artis
that's an excellent question- how bout starting a specific thread on that subject
with a truck or motorhome or towing maybe 8.5-9:1 true stock big or RV converter

light vehicle, bigger cam hp converter polish the chambers lets ask everyone else but a real 10:1 is stretching it and that's if you cruve the distributor
now if you have the KB pistons and some quench - quench dome pistons- I'd feel much better about it

 

[Artis]

tourq converter will be in the list after engine rebuild.
This engine will be swapped in 69' charger with sure grip 8 3/4 (as far as I remember ratio was 3.xx ( tomorrow will check ))
But now I need help with compression things.
906 from factory chamber volume is 79 cc’s.
My block will be .0200 overbore, and Im thinking about KB184 pistons.
Heads and block surface will be machined + thick headgasket ( still searching ).
Stock rod lenght.

 

[1967coronet440]

tourq converter will be in the list after engine rebuild.
This engine will be swapped in 69' charger with sure grip 8 3/4 (as far as I remember ratio was 3.xx ( tomorrow will check ))
But now I need help with compression things.
906 from factory chamber volume is 79 cc’s.
My block will be .0200 overbore, and Im thinking about KB184 pistons.
Heads and block surface will be machined + thick headgasket ( still searching ).
Stock rod lenght.

If I’m not mistaken 906’s are around 88cc’s open chamber...

 

[wyrmrider]

Measure the outside row of bolts under the exhaust ports , nominal uncut head is 1.000
uncut can be 88-93 cc
sometimes 86ccs after a mild cut
you will see a spec of 81.5 ccs also
70.5 is the NHRA Blueprint minimum or is it 79.5 for the early open chamber heads
about 2cc per .010 cut
or
.0042 for every cc

YMMV you have to measure both ends of each head
the end chambers tend to be smaller than the center two
but you can open up around the intake to fix that
factory heads are broached
circular marks show aftermarket mill job
but quicky rebuilders use a belt sanders and can have one end way off from the other

 

[Artis]

With KB184 pistons - CR with head chamber of:
72cc - 10.4
80cc - 9.7
84cc - 9.3
88cc - 8.9

With KB236
72cc - 11.5
80cc - 10.7
84cc - 10.3
88cc - 9.9

My heads are exactly 1.000 high. No doubts they will be machined, but how much i dont know. Im thinking of - 86-85ccm.
+ head gasket - something like mancini steel ( .020 compressed ).

With KB184 pistons CR should be 8.9
With KB236 pistons CR should be 9.9

236 are closest ones, for my imagined compression. Is 9.5+ even possible with iron heads? And when I need to start worry about daily pump gas usage?

 

[wyrmrider]

I sit the head on the bare block with no gasket and scribe the bores on the head with an icepick or machinists scribe then open up the chambers as necessary
I can get all chambers the same and 5 cc increase is no problem
do NOT open to the gasket size unless you have some 361-413 small bore truck gaskets which actually work pretty good for a pattern (especially if the block is together) truck gaskets are stainless shims
let's see the actual ccs first

 

[Artis]

hello guys!

Block is ready.
- .020
- kb184 pistons
- eagle rods
- clevite bearings ( rods&main)
- MP oil pump

About camshaft I have lots of versions. But what would be best cam for good torque @low rpm?
And what would be best rpm converter for 8 3/4 sure grip - 2400 - 2500?
Heads will stay stock 906 with light porting + machined.

 

[Artis]

For my compression ( ~9.1:1) this is what Im thinking about..
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cca-k21-224-4/overview/make/chrysler

 

[wyrmrider]

what did your compression end up as?
If still low compression Lunati Voodoo, Howards, Hughes
comp as nothing but compromises for low compression motors
don't give up your low end

 

[wyrmrider]

9:1 motor
did you look at the details
www.compcams.com/21-224-4(Single%20Bolt).camshaft
which links to
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=708&sb=2

you pick a cam that close the intake 63 Degrees ABDC @.006 checking height
and has a valve lift in the just under half inch area
274 intake duration
AN old chevy profile you think you need 274 intake get the XE275HL 21-227-4(Single Bolt)
especially if you are going for that much horsepower
but what about driveable torque
I would like to see 10:1 with either of those cams
For a 9:1 motor
Howard has a .506 lift intake with 267 duration, one with 518 with 271, one with 496 with 263 duration- would shut the intake 5 degrees earlier for a bunch more dynamic compression and low end torque perhaps PM AJ and he can run the numbers for you
Hughes has a bunch of choices that can get your intake closed up to around 10 degrees earlier with about the same duration where it counts at .200 lift
Lunati 262 degree Voodoo 268 voodoo has half inch lift
do you see all these guys advancing their cams because they got one too big? 4 degrees can make a big difference
did you ever say what gears, converter etc you plan on using?

 

[Artis]

what did your compression end up as?

With STD size eagle rods and KB184, Im expecting quench will be ~ .055' off the block.
Block is cleaned up cutting off - .010'
From heads - .015'
Head gasket .020'

 

[wyrmrider]

good what's the dist between the top of the KB184 and the chamber?
I have a TRUE 9:1 440 and am using a 256 degree cam @.006 with .305 lobe lift, fully ported 916 heads (I have 6 pack pistons in which I machined a "turbo" type "D" dish
My intake closes at about 54 degrees ABDC- about 10 degrees earlier than the one you suggest
BVVC if you U end up with 9:1 and want to close the intake any later
I have heavy vehicle and tow, tall gears, tight converter- lots of pull off the line and passes ok out on the highway
If you look at the Stan Weiss site you will see that 440 heads do not gain much from .500 to .600, even pocket ported/ bowl blended you get more flow at 500 but still not much more with more lift
So the only reason to use more lift is to get more duration at .500- open quick, dwell at max lift, close quickly
or you can use a design like Engles KD52 that rolls the nose over to give a lot of duration at 500 (and at 200)
makes it easier on the springs too I use duals but single with dampner or Beehive will work just fine
have an idea what your spring height is b4 ordering springs, have some way to locate the spring bottom (cut or cup or other washer thing)
If you are buying locks and retainers I recommend getting 10 degree- If stock retainers you can find springs that will work but do get chrome molly hardned retainers (not the cheap stamped hardened ones) HEMI and 6 pack springs are candidates once you have the dimensions of your retainers- they have to match the springs

 

[Artis]

By 256 cam you mean - 256/262 or 256/268?
Sounds like a very good torque.