440 Rebuild

[Challenger340]

I'll go get a picture tomorrow....
that said,
we use an old Cam Core with 'grooves' cut in the journals to fit Cam Brgs.
Just winde it in and it 'sizes' the B2 Cam Bearing material....which then with just a very light polish with white Scotch Brite on a piece of Redi-Rod using solvent final cleans/preps the Bearings.
NO.... the white Scotch Brite material does NOT inbed in the B2 bearing material.

Done literally hundreds this way... Dyno'd and cut the Filters apart on all... never a problem.

 

[4406bbl]

Generally the block finishes at .030 and the clearance is built into the piston. You have been given really good advice on bearing clearance, oil pump, and cam bearing fit.

 

[66Satellite47]

Husker, Curious is spot on. No need for a cam button, a race only, high spring load deal. It doesn't matter what the motor came out of, just the condition, bore condition, etc. IMHO a 440 block is a 440 block. I look at the block for signs of core shift. Look at the front of the block for how close to center the bolt holes are to the center of the casting boss. A good basic indicator. I've sonic checked 440 blocks '66 to '78, all pretty much the same. Variation is in the individual block not the year. Follow the piston manufactures piston to wall. Various pistons are made from different alloys, therefore have different expansion characteristics. I think you are over thinking the cam bearing issue. If you clean the oil passages first, and your builder knows how to install them with the correct tool and checks the oil feed hole after installation. Of course fitting is important. Once the cam bearings are correctly fitted (spin freely by hand), they will be good. They don't see much deterioration, even with high valve spring load high RPM's. My experience was that a limited amount of scraping may be required, you can see where the bearing needs to be scraped. Can't imagine why a .010 over cam bearing would be required.

 

[MoparHusker]

I was attempting some humor in saying that the engine is out of a "C" body. I might take the car to get groceries sometime and I do have kids, so it could be a mom and pop grocery getter, but hopefully a little faster than they normal grocery getter.

From the low side tolerance on the crank grinds, probably not something I remember reading about or hearing about. So, I am glad that these things are brought up, because I just would not have thought about that. But, once it is said, it makes perfect sense. I was able to get Mancini contacted before they shipped my order, so I did have them swap in the HV pump. I have not heard back from the machinist yet and I am trying to be patient, because I know he has a shop full of work to do. Weill have to see what the best way to get this information to him is. Email, fax or text.

I did get the cam bearings ordered today and went with the PDP-17. I found the Durabond cross reference document and it showed that this is their equivalent to the Clevite SH2152S. I would agree that I probably over think this stuff and it is probably a by product of my day job being a software engineer. We have to be pretty detail oriented on everything and I usually mull stuff over a bit to make sure I have it correct. I have a pretty low failure rate when things go to production, so I don't get a bunch of calls to fix things at 4:00 AM. When I get a chance to talk to the machinist, I will make sure to ask what his normal process is and if I need to pay him some extra shop labor to take his time, I will do that. Just want to make sure that when it is built, it is going last me.

For the cam not coming out, I had watched a 440 teardown video and they talked about the fuel pump rod, so I made sure to have that out. And speaking of fuel pump rods, I have been researching those and I finally went out and measured the one I took out and it looks pretty decent. My calipers only go to hundredths, but it did measure in at 3.22". Not sure what the stock diameter is, but it measured at .43". When I took it out, it slid smoothly in the bore. So, at this point, because it looks to be in pretty good shape and it looks like a lot of places have these on backorder, I am thinking I am just going to reuse the oem one.

Also got the oil pan, cam bolts, Clevite bearing lube and other assembly lube ordered.

 

[MoparHusker]

Talked to the machinist and he said he bored the block .030.

Ready to order Icon 9953 pistons:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-ic9953-030

Sealed Power E-424K30 piston rings:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-e-424k30

Now need to order bearings, main and rod. I want to go with the Clevite 77 bearings. I think in looking and doing some searches, seems like the P-series is probably the better choice over the H-series. Engine will probably be in the 450 HP range. Full groove or half groove? In looking on FBBO, I saw several posts where folks looking at the same usage as me, were told half groove should be just fine. I called Clevite and the guy looked up part numbers for the bearings. He said since my engine is a 1969, I needed MS877P for the mains and CB527P for the rods. I will get .010 over for the crank grind. Anyway, he said these are full groove and in doing some looking, seems like that part number may have been replaced with MS2324P. So, hoping the smart guys on here can shed some light on this, so I can make sure to order the correct parts.

Thank you!

 

[Challenger340]

Talked to the machinist and he said he bored the block .030.

Ready to order Icon 9953 pistons:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-ic9953-030

Sealed Power E-424K30 piston rings:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-e-424k30

Now need to order bearings, main and rod. I want to go with the Clevite 77 bearings. I think in looking and doing some searches, seems like the P-series is probably the better choice over the H-series. Engine will probably be in the 450 HP range. Full groove or half groove? In looking on FBBO, I saw several posts where folks looking at the same usage as me, were told half groove should be just fine. I called Clevite and the guy looked up part numbers for the bearings. He said since my engine is a 1969, I needed MS877P for the mains and CB527P for the rods. I will get .010 over for the crank grind. Anyway, he said these are full groove and in doing some looking, seems like that part number may have been replaced with MS2324P. So, hoping the smart guys on here can shed some light on this, so I can make sure to order the correct parts.

Thank you!

Stock Rods ReSized with ARP Rod Bolts the "P" eccentricity CB527P's are fine
For the Mains on these type builds we still default to the Sealed Power Part #119M 10 which is a 3/4 Groove ?
Nothing wrong with the MS2324P.... we just prefer the 119M's

 

[beanhead]

I'll go get a picture tomorrow....
that said,
we use an old Cam Core with 'grooves' cut in the journals to fit Cam Brgs.
Just winde it in and it 'sizes' the B2 Cam Bearing material....which then with just a very light polish with white Scotch Brite on a piece of Redi-Rod using solvent final cleans/preps the Bearings.
NO.... the white Scotch Brite material does NOT inbed in the B2 bearing material.

Done literally hundreds this way... Dyno'd and cut the Filters apart on all... never a problem.

Works every time!

 

[MoparHusker]

I was not sure what the difference was and I found this picture:

So, the bottom main bearing cap is the early version, pre-1974. The top one is late version. So, with mine being a 1969, it should take the bearing with a narrow flange.

The thing I think that is interesting is that in the Clevite literature, they said that with lots of research, the 1/2 groove is the best design. So, why then are the options for the 440 only seeming to be full groove?

 

[4406bbl]

3/4 groove is the best design, some do not like them, claim they have wear marks in the coating upon teardown. I have seen this but think the crank not being 100% flat after polish, or flexing is the issue. Engines on their second and third refresh seem to not have this issue. I imagine went full narrow groove to carry less part numbers. 119m give me about .0005 more clearance, and that is what I want. 1/2 groove will carry the most load, but may not be the best.

 

[MoparHusker]

1/2 groove will carry the most load, but may not be the best.

I think the majority of the load will still be handled. I will definitely take a look at the 119M. Looks like there are a couple of options.

 

[4406bbl]

Your engine will be fine with any main bearings.1/2, 3/4 or full, just do not use wide full groove mains.

 

[MoparHusker]

I think the 119m is worth taking a look at.

119m is a bi-metal vs Clevite ms2324p, which is a tri-metal. What is best?

The Clevite description in their catalog says wide full groove. What does that mean? Is the bearing wide vs narrow and has a full groove or is the groove wider than normal? How much bearing surface difference is there, especially on the bottom where the load will be?

I also pulled up the Clevite ms2233HG. So, this one says it has narrowed shells for more clearance. Is this one worth looking at? It says the thrust bearing is fully grooved and the other 4 bearings have a 3/4 groove. So, is that one better than the 119m as both have the 3/4 groove, but the Clevite has the tri-metal?

 

[66Satellite47]

I always used the Clevite Tri metals in my drag motors, also the wide full groove mains. The wide full grooves used to be called the Hemi bearings. They allow for a larger oil flow volume, which generally would require the HV oil pump. I have had 3/4 bearings but never actually used them in my motors. Seem like they'd be good for a "normal" HP motor maybe not an all out drag motor. IIRC the 1st layer of the Tri Metal is almost like the "break in" layer. Pretty sure I used the Bi metal bearing when I built the 360 for my tow vehicle. Worked great.

 

[MoparHusker]

Got some orders placed:
1. Clevite CB527P10 rod bearings
2. Icon 9953-030 pistons
3. Sealed Power E-424K30 piston rings
4. Sealed Power 119M10 main bearings

Just need to look at the gaskets now.

Looking at the Fel-Pro 8519PT1 for head gaskets. I tried looking to see if they were included in one of the gasket kits or if I have to order everything separately. I can’t tell if it the same head gaskets in the KS 2110 kit. Any recommendation for the valley pan gasket?

Also, I don’t know if anyone had thoughts on reusing the fuel pump rod. It looks to be in pretty good shape.

Thank you!

 

[Grabbergreendream]

I've recently read several posts recommending reusing the original fuel pump pushrod as anything available on the market right now have problems with heat treating causing metal shavings in the oil. Measure yours & see what you have. Unused new stock pushrods are 3.225"

 

[4406bbl]

K2110 has the 8519pt, and absolutely reuse your fuel pump pushrod.

 

[4406bbl]

Ks2110

 

[66Satellite47]

The 8519 gaskets are very good. They do hold up to fairly high CR pretty well. If your OEM fuel pump rod measures good, use it.

 

[MoparHusker]

Thank you for the replies.

looks like there are a couple of kits, FS7891PT11:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-fs7891pt11

And the KS2110:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-ks2110?rrec=true

Looks like the first one has a few more gaskets to it and maybe some o-rings. Is it worth the extra $17?

Also, what to do about the valley pan. Fel-Pro 1215 contains the valley pan and two sets of intake gaskets. The sets are sandwiched around the valley pan. I think it would look cleaner with a plate there and then just use one set of intake gaskets.

Has anyone run across a nice, reasonably priced valley plate that would accommodate the Edelbrock Performer Rpm dual plane intake?

 

[Lowcar]

hello husker, i'm just a little east of desmoines it looks as if were neighbors, i picked up my stroker 340 a week ago today from Mid America engines in washington ia, dave is pretty much the authorty on mopars his engine builds have been in the mopar magazines. i dropped off block and told him to do his magic, he prefers to order parts himself, years ago i used arnolds and i think they are fine for small block chevy's and john deere tractors cause thats what they do alot of, oh and daves prices are cheaper than arnolds