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440 Rebuild

Cloyes all day long for me, the trick flow billet set at summit looks interesting for $84, but I have never used one. Maybe research that one. I would not worry about taking .015 off the block, it may take that much to square it, and cometic will make you any head gasket you want. Do research and figure out if .040 piston to head will make your combo more fuel friendly. This thread is the first time I have heard it may not be something to shoot for with your combo.
 
The 440 source timing chain sets are pretty nice too.
http://store.440source.com/Single-Bolt-Timing-Sets/products/116/

Usually if I tell the machine shop to zero-deck the block, the pistons are usually still about 0.002" or slightly more below the deck.
The important part is to make sure the block deck is cut at the correct 45-degree angle(s), and the front and back deck heights are the same on both cylinder banks.

Many stock blocks I checked before having machined, the front and back deck height may vary by around 0.010", and the deck height has been taller than what Chrysler specified. Don't have the specifics with me, I think a "B" engine is supposed to be 9.980" tall, and a "RB" 10.725"?
 
Last timing chain we installed was the summit R6606r-b listed with the Torrington bearing. The idea of the bearing seems solid? Seemed to be of good quality... But no miles on it..so take that for what it's worth. We've had great luck with cloyes, it's still what we run w roller cams. The cheap,cheap chains are crap.
 
This type of build... "IMO"... target between .045" to .055" quench distance with no more than 8:1 DCR from the cam events.

With OOTB Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads/Headers and a Holley SD or equivalent Intake using the CompCams XE268H we usually see 455-465 HP and 510-515 Ft/Lbs or thereabouts with just a very slight 'musclecar' style Exhaust note
It's all done by 5,500 rpm so no point rev'ing higher.... but makes a very capable and fun street deal.

Comp Cams 2109 T/Chain & Gears are fine as well for budget street engines.
 
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Cam I going to use is 23-223-4, Comp Cams XE268H, which has ABDC of 60. Not sure if that helps.
 
Built all my BB's at .010 down. Always worked fine. A little left to clean if needed.
 
Almost like Christmas around here.

ARP rod and head bolts came last Saturday.
Comp Cams cam came yesterday (the one I need to return).
Edelbrock Performer RPM heads came today as well as the Cloyes timing set.

I am planning to paint the engine hemi orange (blue from factory) as I like orange better. Contemplating getting the ARP bolt kit ( black oxide). Is that going to look crappy against the orange paint? Just trying to figure out what I need to get on order as it seems like a lot of parts are back ordered right now.
 
My kind of Christmas!
It would help if you could share a link on the parts your considering.
 
MoparHusker said:
Cam I going to use is 23-223-4, Comp Cams XE268H, which has ABDC of 60. Not sure if that helps.
Click to expand...
I believe Comp Cams use 0.006" lobe lift for their "advertised" duration (268 degrees) with hydraulic lifter cams?
I like using the 0.006" lobe lift numbers for comparing Dynamic Compression ratio. "Dynamic" is not really a good description of the ratio number, I usually call it "Effective" compression ratio.
It is just a static compression ratio re-calculated from the closing point of the Intake valve. Normally used to estimate the cranking cylinder pressure.
The intake closing point can also be changed by advancing or retarding the cams installed centerline.
The basic idea is starting at the installed centerline of the cam (106 degrees) which normally splits the cams duration in half, assuming symmetrical open and closing sides of the lobe (268/2 = closing point 134 degrees past the cams installed centerline), so add the centerline 106 plus half lobe duration to closing point 160+134=240 degrees after TDC. But the closing point is normally listed as after BDC, so subtract 1/2 a circle (180 degrees) and 240-180 = 60 degrees after BDC.

The piston position when the valve closes is used to re-calculate the "compression" stroke length.
The math is a bit more complex, but it really boils down to the piston position due to crank rotation "and" the angle the connection rod makes between the piston and crank throw.

We want the piston position after BDC when the intake closes, so we need the distance the crank moved up from bottom dead center, which is just the Cosine of 60 degrees = 0.5 (intake closing point) times 1/2 the crank stroke 3.75" / 2=1.875" (Radius of rotation), so the crank position is only 0.9375" above BDC
For a Spread Sheet calculation: Crank Vertical offset =(STROKE/2) * (COS(INTAKE CLOSING DEGREES * PI() / 180)) = 0.938"

With our 6.768" long rod, we need to know how much the rod is moved over to the side and tilted keeping the piston down a bit lower in the cylinder. Assuming the piston pin is centered (if the pin is offset, then the offset would need to be added or subtracted), anyhow, the crank pin side to side position is just Sine of 60 degrees = 0.8660... again multiplied by crank radius (1/2 stroke = 1.875"), so the rod is moved over from the center by 1.6238" .
For a Spread Sheet calculation: Crank horizontal offset =(STROKE/2) * (SIN(INTAKE CLOSING DEGREES * PI() / 180)) = 1.624"

Just using Pythagorean theorem, this gives the new height above the crank with a known rod length.
Starting with our 6.768" length rod, take the square root of the rod length ^2 - the Crank horizontal offset ^2 = 6.6633" (compared to the full 6.768" at TDC/BDC)
For a Spread Sheet calculation: Piston height due to rod tilt =SQRT((ROD LENGTH ^2)-(Crank horizontal offset)^2)) = 6.663"

Now you have the information to find the piston position ABDC when the intake closes.
There are several ways to put these together depending on what your reference position is, but I just want the new compression (not stroke) length that I can drop into a static compression ratio calculation.
I take the piston position as the crank Vertical offset = 0.938" minus the difference in height due to rod tilt (Original Rod Length - Rod height with tilt) 6.768 - 6.6633 = 0.10470" height diff due to rod tilt. Subtract from crank vertical height change 0.938" - 0.1047" = 0.8328" piston position above BDC at intake closing.

Then to get the compression distance = STROKE - Piston Position, 3.75 - 0.8328 = 2.9172"

Calculating the new Effective compression ratio, if you started out with a 10:1 static compression ratio 440, The Effective (Dynamic) compression with this cam would be 8:1 compression.

Using the pressure formula that was in the Panic Tech Papers @ http://victorylibrary/mopar/cam-tech-c.htm, you just take the Effective compression ratio and rise it to power of 1.2 (the 1.2 number was used, and seems OK for comparison sake. It would vary depending on the sealing and thermal dynamics of the engine.) then multiply that number by your atmosphere air pressure 14.7 at sea-level std temp.
so 8^1.2 = 12.13 * 14.7psi = 178.25 psi Absolute pressure. with a gauge reference pressure to atmosphere (14.7) so Gauge pressure is 178.25 - 14.7 = 163.55 psi approximate cranking cylinder pressure at sea-level, ect, ect....
 
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MoparHusker said:
Here is the ARP bolt kit I am considering:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-545-9801

Here is the oil pan I am looking at:
https://www.manciniracing.com/ch426hesust6.html

Wanted a 6 quart pan and this one is supposed to keep the same depth. I assume this can be sanded primed and painted?
Click to expand...
I would think you would just paint the pan as is. The coating is pretty hard, not going to scuff up. It's kind of a zinc plating. Since it should be pretty clean a good etching primer should help it stick. A acid based one I would try(see link).
Arp bolts are great if you can get them. Last year we had a terrible time getting main studs from anyone. Seems summit eta is a floating, changing date:(.
Acid base etching primer...
https://tcpglobal.com/products/cus-sp-440
 
The Milodon pans look good as is Imo...
20190302_140858.jpg
 
451Mopar, thank you for putting all of the math down to show how the numbers are arrived at. I think it would be awesome to see a sticky thread out there with all of that information from, Challenger, Curious, 66Satellite and others.

I would say I have found out there is a whole lot more to this than I ever thought. Before I started on this adventure I did not know what quench or dynamic compression ratio was and I don’t remember even hearing those terms before. So, I am very appreciative of you guys taking your time to help educate me as well as others on all of the finer points we need to know.

Curious, I have ordered main bolts and not the studs and Jegs is saying I should have them next week.

The cam bearings still seem to be a month out, so I may see if I can source them somewhere else to get them sooner. The only concern I have is about what happens if something is slightly off and the cam will not turn by hand. I had watched a video of Nick’s Garage and he would test each bearing before and after installing to make sure it would turn. If he had a tight one, he would take I think 2,000 grit Emory cloth with some oil on it and run it around the inside of the bearing. He would then clean it, put a little oil on and test it. He would repeat this until the cam turned freely. So, the concern is about whether or not this polishing process is going to remove some of the critical bearing material from these Clevites, where having ones that have a thicker layer, it would not be as big of a deal? Ideally the cam bearings will be installed and there will be no issues.

Outlawd, they do have a distinctive color. I will have to see what it looks like when I get it and how it looks once I get the engine painted.
 
Husker, not sure I followed all of 451's math, but I'm only an engineer. For your build a 10.0 -10.5 static CR will be good. A .010 down with a .039 gasket will be good for quench. You may want to try moving the cam timing to see what it does. Your cam is a lot smaller than any of mine, but on a couple of mine I could see a difference with a 4* change. I've used both studs and bolts on my different motors. Your build will be just fine with ARP main bolts, they're good. I think I used Clevite cam bearings on every one of my motors. As I recall, each time I needed to "tune" the fit. I could see by the marks on each bearing where they needed to be smoothed. A little time consuming but not difficult. Just go slowly. I like the appearance of my Milodon pans. I wouldn't paint it.
 
I though I would try to explain the calculation where it is broken down to the different parts.
I still don't know how they arrived a an adiabatic factor of 1.2? I know it is based off the ideal gas law of adiabatic compression where the compression factor is 1.4.
Ideal gas law for pressure is P2 = P1 * (V1/V2)^1.4 And V1/V2 is just our effective compression ratio number.
Because there are leakage and thermal losses the actual pressure will be less than that of the Ideal gas law, and the equation I found uses the power of 1.2 unsted of 1.4 How the 1.2 number was arrived at is what I don't know?
https://phys.libretexts.org/Bookshe...cs/3.07:_Adiabatic_Processes_for_an_Ideal_Gas

The temperature increase of the gas (air / fuel mixture) is also interesting. Ideal gas law says the trapped gas temperature will increase in temperature by the compression ratio. T2 = (p2v2/p1v1) * T1. If you plug in actual numbers, the final T2 temperature is higher than you might expect, but again does not account for the intake charge being cooled when the gasoline converts from liquid to gas, and other thermal losses to the metal surfaces of the cylinder.
Anyhow, a Diesel engine uses high compression to heat the air above the auto-ignition temperature of the fuel (494 degrees F).
Something like a 17:1 compression ratio and 30 degree F intake temperature would ideally make the compressed air 510 degrees F, or above the auto-ignition temp of the fuel. Again not taking into account thermal losses.
The auto-ignition temperature of gasoline varies depending on how it is blended because it consists of many different ingredients depending on what qualities the manufactures (and Government) want. The MSDS just shows auto-ignition greater than 500 degrees F.
Again, Ideally, with our 8:1 effective compression ratio, we would want the air / fuel temperature trapped in the cylinder to be below around 65 degrees F (= 520 degrees after compression?) but this does not take into account the cooling effects the fuel has on the air. When a liquid converts to a gas (latent Heat or Phase transition) energy is consumed and there is a cooling effect (think air conditioning, or Nitrous oxide, water not getting hotter than its boiling point...)
The boiling point of Unleaded gasoline is between 80 to 440 degrees, so as the compression increases the air temperature, the gas will start boiling, converting into gas form, trying to stabilize the air/fuel temperature.
I haven't found a good calculation for this yet. If anyone knows of one please post it!

Anyhow, This is why starting with a cooler air intake charge temp, and richer air/fuel mixtures help fight pre-ignition (detonation is a bit different as it is two or more flame fronts colliding.)
 
On the cam bearings, I have the SH2152S on order with Jegs. It says on their site it will ship end of February, “pending manufacturer availability”. So, do I trust that and wait or get something else ordered, just in case? If so, what is the best alternate? Clevite also has the SH876S, made from their B-1 material and I think I have a place to get one of those for around $50 with shipping. Also looks like I might be able to get a Durabond PDP-17, which is their performance version or the PD-17, which is their standard version and I was told it compares to the SH876S. Sounds like parts issue could be getting worse, so just want to make sure I don’t miss out and have to wait forever. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
 
MoparHusker said:
The cam bearings still seem to be a month out, so I may see if I can source them somewhere else to get them sooner. The only concern I have is about what happens if something is slightly off and the cam will not turn by hand.
Click to expand...

I didn't know cam bearings were so hard to get with this supply chain mess?
I normally use the Dura-Bond PDP-17 cam bearings.
Most people just have the machine shop install the cam bearings, but make sure they have your cam to check the fitment.
If installing them yourself, then do check each bearing to the cam journals before installing them.
Once I had one "King" bearing that was too small inside diameter for the cam journal when trying to check it outside the block.
One tip is to chamfer the cam hole side where the cam bearing is being installed from. It don't take much, just don't want the real sharp leading edge going into the cam hole of the block as it can gouge the underside of the cam bearing on install and create a high spot.
If the cam oiling holes were drilled / reamed, make sure it did not leave a peak inside the blocks cam bearing holes also. A light hone of the cam holes should make sure they are clean and not have high spots, plus break the sharp leading edge to the hole.
Test fitting the cam to each bearing after installing it will help locate any bearing that is tight.
 
66Satellite47 said:
Husker, not sure I followed all of 451's math, but I'm only an engineer. For your build a 10.0 -10.5 static CR will be good. A .010 down with a .039 gasket will be good for quench. You may want to try moving the cam timing to see what it does. Your cam is a lot smaller than any of mine, but on a couple of mine I could see a difference with a 4* change. I've used both studs and bolts on my different motors. Your build will be just fine with ARP main bolts, they're good. I think I used Clevite cam bearings on every one of my motors. As I recall, each time I needed to "tune" the fit. I could see by the marks on each bearing where they needed to be smoothed. A little time consuming but not difficult. Just go slowly. I like the appearance of my Milodon pans. I wouldn't paint it.
Click to expand...

Sorry about my math in the original post, I think I wrote 286 duration when I mean 268 duration.
Reason for the original comment is some on-line DCR "calculators" will use the cams duration at 0.050 to get the intake closing point.
I don't know the exact formula they use when entering the 0.050" duration number to guesstimate the actual intake valve closing point?
If the intake valve closing point is used (38 degrees ABDC) the DCR number would be around 9.18:1 and result in cranking pressures numbers around 195 psi.
I believe those numbers are too high from actual, so I believe some conversion is taking place to estimate the 0.006" duration numbers.
Many years ago, Mopar Performance said if you want the 0.050" duration numbers of their cams to use 85% of the advertised duration.
I think the 0.050" calculators might be doing something like this, but taking 0.050" duration and mutliplying by 1/85% (1.1765)
This means if the cams 0.050" duration number is 224 degrees, the estimated "advertised" duration would be 268.24.. or pretty much what Comp lists for the XE268 cam.
 
Unless you have a nice cam bearing installation tool, I would have the shop install them and its always good to have them test fit the cam. Autozone or Oreilly's might rent one??? We bought ours decades ago..it was pricey way back when. Occasionally a cam will be tight. Recently installed a lunati that was slightly oversized on the cam bearing journals. I polished them down in a lathe rather then messing w the bearings.

We've also noticed Different dcr calculators use a different number then 1.2...Not sure where that number is from either, I suspect it doesn't matter as long as your consistent from engine to engine. It also seems to affect cranking pressure calculators. For that reason...Once you familiarize yourself w a certain calculator it's difficult compare one number to another from a different calculator. A dcr calculator using a. 050 closing event makes little sense to me. The closing rates on cams are vastly different. To further complicate it, cam ratings are just an average and don't say whether Symmetric or assymetric . A while back we "tried" to get a more accurate dcr on a XE... we measured a 268xe @.006. We now add 3or4 degrees to a XE to compare it to other cams on the dcr calculator. Adding 4 degrees to a 268xe gets the dcr in the upper 7's @10:1.

We are using a program from a engine software designer that figures minimum octane requirement, dcr is part of it. He was kind enough to let us download it and play with engine numbers.:) Not sure if it's available for sale yet. His calculator showed this engine requiring 91-92 octane. The 262xe was higher yet,
 
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