66Satellite47
Well-Known Member
The EDE RPM's are a very nice head. They will cover a wide range of performance applications. I'd still have the guide clearance and valve job checked out by a performance oriented machinist.
440 Rebuild
- Thread starter MoparHusker
- Start date
Curiousyellow71
Well-Known Member
Be careful pushing compression with a small cam like the 262xe. If you intend to fill up at any pump you will regret pushing the compression limit. Imo...More then 10:1 is pushing it. Upper to mid 9s you won't notice power loss at all. But...You WILL notice a power loss if you have to pull the timing out.
Some affordable piston options are made by Icon and wiseco. We've used the SP 2355 back when there weren't other options. 2355s "were" pretty affordable, but lately the price has been fluctuating
. Lighter pistons like icon and wiseco needs to be balanced. The 2355 should be balanced bcause they are heavier then stock. Less mass in the rotating assembly will rev quicker and is easier on parts. But it really does not matter all that much at your power levels. It's pretty common to take .015 or .020 off the block to get it square to blueprint. As for quench 040 is a pretty standard goal.
I would not be afraid of other cam bearing brands. Summit shows what they have in stock. Cam bearing aren't typically a problem as long as the installer has good tools and knows what they are doing.
Some affordable piston options are made by Icon and wiseco. We've used the SP 2355 back when there weren't other options. 2355s "were" pretty affordable, but lately the price has been fluctuating
. Lighter pistons like icon and wiseco needs to be balanced. The 2355 should be balanced bcause they are heavier then stock. Less mass in the rotating assembly will rev quicker and is easier on parts. But it really does not matter all that much at your power levels. It's pretty common to take .015 or .020 off the block to get it square to blueprint. As for quench 040 is a pretty standard goal.I would not be afraid of other cam bearing brands. Summit shows what they have in stock. Cam bearing aren't typically a problem as long as the installer has good tools and knows what they are doing.
Challenger340
Well-Known Member
For Compression and Cam selection purposes ?
it never hurts to "Google" and familiarize yourself with what's called Dynamic Compression Ratio...."DCR"
Which is the theoretical pressure the A/F charge is subjected to in the Cylinder, which is modified by the selected Camshaft Intake Valve closing event ABDC
LOTS more going on.... atomization, temps, velocities, chamber quench...
But that said,
"DCR" is a good tool at home to educate and understand Fuel requirements beyond just 10:1 "Static" Compression ratio ?
it never hurts to "Google" and familiarize yourself with what's called Dynamic Compression Ratio...."DCR"
Which is the theoretical pressure the A/F charge is subjected to in the Cylinder, which is modified by the selected Camshaft Intake Valve closing event ABDC
LOTS more going on.... atomization, temps, velocities, chamber quench...
But that said,
"DCR" is a good tool at home to educate and understand Fuel requirements beyond just 10:1 "Static" Compression ratio ?
Curiousyellow71
Well-Known Member
Use the first calculator to find when the intake is closing.
http://www.wallaceracing.com/cam-deg-calc.php
Dcr
http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.p
http://www.wallaceracing.com/cam-deg-calc.php
Dcr
http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.p
MoparHusker
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the additional information. I will have to take a look at it.
As an update, I did a little looking around this morning and found the 60929 heads on Amazon. Summit, Jegs and others went from $858 per head to $901. I found them on Amazon for $826. They only had 12 lest, so I ordered a pair of them.
As for the pistons it seems like there is information going both directions. I am down to the Speed Pro or the Icon. Probably go with the Six Pack piston. I have read too many posts, but seems like it was said the Speed pro was heavier than sock, so you would have to remove some weight to keep the same balance. If the heavier piston was used, you could lose 25 HP from the extra mass that the rotating assembly has to move.
I will have to go back to see if I can find the information.
I think I like the icon a little better as it has a slight bit more CD and I would lose a little less cc’s for the valve notches (4.4cc vs 7cc)
Thank you again!
As an update, I did a little looking around this morning and found the 60929 heads on Amazon. Summit, Jegs and others went from $858 per head to $901. I found them on Amazon for $826. They only had 12 lest, so I ordered a pair of them.
As for the pistons it seems like there is information going both directions. I am down to the Speed Pro or the Icon. Probably go with the Six Pack piston. I have read too many posts, but seems like it was said the Speed pro was heavier than sock, so you would have to remove some weight to keep the same balance. If the heavier piston was used, you could lose 25 HP from the extra mass that the rotating assembly has to move.
I will have to go back to see if I can find the information.
I think I like the icon a little better as it has a slight bit more CD and I would lose a little less cc’s for the valve notches (4.4cc vs 7cc)
Thank you again!
MoparHusker
Well-Known Member
Got the Edelbrock Performer RPM intake ordered today. So, slowly getting the parts together.
Curiousyellow71
Well-Known Member
Sounds like progress.
When adding heavier pistons they add weight to the crank counterbalances, they generally don't lighten the piston. Sometimes the metal used to balance can add cost to the balance job. Roughly 1/2 the piston weight gets added to the crank bobweight for balancing. A piston with narrower ring will also make few more hp then a oem ring. Several benefits to icon or similiar pistons over the speedpro. Also make sure you get the right pin size if you go w icons.
When adding heavier pistons they add weight to the crank counterbalances, they generally don't lighten the piston. Sometimes the metal used to balance can add cost to the balance job. Roughly 1/2 the piston weight gets added to the crank bobweight for balancing. A piston with narrower ring will also make few more hp then a oem ring. Several benefits to icon or similiar pistons over the speedpro. Also make sure you get the right pin size if you go w icons.
MoparHusker
Well-Known Member
Ok. If the block gets bored .030 over I will have a 4.35 bore. Stroke will be 3.75. The Edelbrock Performer RPM heads I bought have an 84cc combustion chamber. If I go with the Icon 9953 pistons, the compression distance is 2.067, so .018 down from the 2.085 number. If I had .005 milled from the block to square it up, that should put me at .013 in the hole. The Icon piston adds 5.6cc, because of the valve notches. I plan to use head gaskets with a .039 compressed thickness. Taking all of that information and plugging it into the Summit Compression calculator shows that I should have a 9.93 static compression ratio.
I now go to the Wallace Racing site to calculate the dynamic compression ratio, plugging in 8 cylinders, 4.35 bore, 3.75 stroke, 6.76 rod length, static compression ratio of 9.93:1, 0 boost and 873 feet for altitude. Lastly, Comp Cams shows 57 ABDC for the 21-222-4, XE262H cam. The calculation shows that I should have a dynamic compression ratio of 8.33:1.
Does all of that sound correct or did I go off the rails somewhere?
I now go to the Wallace Racing site to calculate the dynamic compression ratio, plugging in 8 cylinders, 4.35 bore, 3.75 stroke, 6.76 rod length, static compression ratio of 9.93:1, 0 boost and 873 feet for altitude. Lastly, Comp Cams shows 57 ABDC for the 21-222-4, XE262H cam. The calculation shows that I should have a dynamic compression ratio of 8.33:1.
Does all of that sound correct or did I go off the rails somewhere?
Challenger340
Well-Known Member
I would shoot for down closer to an 8:1 DCR by entertaining the slightly larger XE268H Cam and 60* ABDC closing with the Eddy 60929 Heads and 8519PT-1 (10.2 CC) Head Gaskets at 9.84:1 static.
We have experienced no complaints using a stock Torque Convertor behind 268 similarly equipped 440's.
We have experienced no complaints using a stock Torque Convertor behind 268 similarly equipped 440's.
66Satellite47
Well-Known Member
Do check the EDE heads for CC's, but I expect them to be pretty close to the 84. A 9.9 CR should be good for pump premium. My bet is is the larger XE268H would be more satisfying. My opinion.
Curiousyellow71
Well-Known Member
I agree.
A 268xe is about as small as you would want to go. That matches our experience and when I plugged the moparhusker info into a more elaborate program (figures minimum octane)....the 268xe likes premium and the 262xe is not going to be happy on anything you can buy at the pump....until you lower your static compression.
Comp was off saying a big block needs that small cam to match up with a stock convertor. Especially w 3.23.
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MoparHusker
Well-Known Member
Well.....dang! I wish I would have known two days ago, before I ordered the 262 cam. Just hate how the supply chain is these days and saw on Summit they were down to three in stock and I was going to order the ARP bolts anyway, so figured I would order the cam as well. I can return it, will just have to pay the shipping.
Thank you very much for taking the time to look at this and make the recommendation!
I just saw on The Comp Cams website in the comments for the cam “Will work with a stock converter, but best with a 1800+ stall.” They have some Dyno results from I think a small block Chevy and the 262 had more torque and horsepower than the 268, which I thought was interesting.
Looks like they have a 1 bolt version and a 3 bolt version. Any preference between the two? Someone told me the 3 bolt is stronger, but I guess I don’t know if it makes a difference. Are there more timing sets available for the 3 bolt. Once I get it figured out I will get one of them ordered.
Thank you very much for taking the time to look at this and make the recommendation!
I just saw on The Comp Cams website in the comments for the cam “Will work with a stock converter, but best with a 1800+ stall.” They have some Dyno results from I think a small block Chevy and the 262 had more torque and horsepower than the 268, which I thought was interesting.
Looks like they have a 1 bolt version and a 3 bolt version. Any preference between the two? Someone told me the 3 bolt is stronger, but I guess I don’t know if it makes a difference. Are there more timing sets available for the 3 bolt. Once I get it figured out I will get one of them ordered.
Curiousyellow71
Well-Known Member
3 bolt is a lot stronger. A good multi keyed set is extra cost but saves time degreeing in the cam.
MoparHusker
Well-Known Member
I ordered the 3 bolt, 23-223-4. Now researching double roller timing chain and gears. I see they have ones that are .005 and .010 smaller. Is that because of grinding down the crankshaft?
Curiousyellow71
Well-Known Member
No. It's related to align boring the mains and the crank sits higher in the block requiring a shorter chain. I believe the sprockets are what they change to tighten up the chain. Most shops are skilled enough taking off very little off the caps when they align bore and a stock chain works fine.
4406bbl
Well-Known Member
If it was me there is no way I would run those heads, with a .039 gasket, with the piston .010 in the hole. I would zero deck it for the perfect
.035-.040 quench and take the slight compression increase. If you are worried about that slight increase polish the chambers. I would also pay someone to disassemble those heads and check everything, last few I had had tight guides and a less than ideal valve job. You are going to have a serious chunk of change in this engine, I would not build it around the torque converter, good ones make the car.
.035-.040 quench and take the slight compression increase. If you are worried about that slight increase polish the chambers. I would also pay someone to disassemble those heads and check everything, last few I had had tight guides and a less than ideal valve job. You are going to have a serious chunk of change in this engine, I would not build it around the torque converter, good ones make the car.
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Challenger340
Well-Known Member
Made 810 hp and 730 Ft/Lbs on the Dyno with a 540 Wedge one day....
then
we changed from a .039" Head gasket to a .080" Cometic right there on the Dyno...
NO other changes other than a CR drop and BIG increase in quench, then we re-assembled....
and
watched it kick 849 HP with 750 Ft/Lbs !
Morale of the story....
don't go chasing your tail that "quench" absolutely MUST BE a certain number or that tighter is ALWAYS better ?
Depends on the Engine...
Different Bore Sizes like different Quench distances depending upon things like the Intake/Exhaust Flow Ratio....Cam Scavenging characteristics... Valves opening "on center" of the Cylinder(Hemi's and SBM) Vrs the "Backside" of the Cylinder(SBC and BBM).... and on and on....
Now I just shoot for .045"-.055" on a BBM and call it a day !
then
we changed from a .039" Head gasket to a .080" Cometic right there on the Dyno...
NO other changes other than a CR drop and BIG increase in quench, then we re-assembled....
and
watched it kick 849 HP with 750 Ft/Lbs !
Morale of the story....
don't go chasing your tail that "quench" absolutely MUST BE a certain number or that tighter is ALWAYS better ?
Depends on the Engine...
Different Bore Sizes like different Quench distances depending upon things like the Intake/Exhaust Flow Ratio....Cam Scavenging characteristics... Valves opening "on center" of the Cylinder(Hemi's and SBM) Vrs the "Backside" of the Cylinder(SBC and BBM).... and on and on....
Now I just shoot for .045"-.055" on a BBM and call it a day !
padam
Well-Known Member
I'm really confused about the term quench.
From how its discussed on these forums I thought guys were using it as a term for how far the piston is down from the deck.
Can you please explain it to me?
Thanks!
4406bbl
Well-Known Member
Ok, I stand corrected and you have a dyno. I still would try for zero deck on this engine as it should make it more detonation resistant. I never thought it would make more power at that compression and with that cam, it just seems to help the pump gas 500hp engine's with detonation. I doubt at this power level you would see that kind of hp gain, but may be wrong Any thoughts on this?
MoparHusker
Well-Known Member
I am sure that the engine will not be 100% optimized. Since I am using a milder cam, I won’t be taking full advantage of the heads and intake, but if I decide later to chase more hp and torque, it should lessen the amount of parts I need to swap out.
I hate to zero deck, because once you take it off, you can’t put it back on again and I really would hate to do that my engine. If these things were a dime a dozen, maybe it wouldn’t be as big of a deal, but since they are not, I want to do the minimum, within reason, for the machining on the block.
I think I have it down to two timing sets I am looking at, Summit SUM-G6606R-B and Cloyes 9-3525TX9. Looks like the Cloyes is about $32 more. Thoughts?
I hate to zero deck, because once you take it off, you can’t put it back on again and I really would hate to do that my engine. If these things were a dime a dozen, maybe it wouldn’t be as big of a deal, but since they are not, I want to do the minimum, within reason, for the machining on the block.
I think I have it down to two timing sets I am looking at, Summit SUM-G6606R-B and Cloyes 9-3525TX9. Looks like the Cloyes is about $32 more. Thoughts?
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