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440 Rebuild

So, if the during was less than 8 for this engine, then the octane requirement would be less? Just trying to understand all of this. There is a lot to this.

It was Christmas again today:
Mancini Racing billet rear main seal
Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold

I will say that this supply issue is a real PITA. Called Jegs to ask about the Clevite SH2152S cam bearings and they indicated it it would be early March at the earliest before they would have them. The date keeps getting pushed back, so who knows. I do not want to get left waiting and then not be able to find anything, so I did some more looking around and after a lot of searching, I was able to find an SH876S, also a Clevite set. I also asked Jegs about the ARP main bearing set, 140-5003, and they said that could now be into March. So, started looking around for that also and everyone wished me good luck as they said these had been on back order for months. I was finally able to find one and get it ordered. I was not able to find the ARP 545-9801 engine bolt set. I was able to find the ARP 545-9701 set, which is the 12 point version. It is just crazy how bad the supply is. I also ordered the cam bolts and the oil pan.

I am a little concerned going forward with everything I need to order yet. Hopefully it will go smoothly.
 
Curiousyellow71 said:
Unless you have a nice cam bearing installation tool, I would have the shop install them and its always good to have them test fit the cam. Autozone or Oreilly's might rent one??? We bought ours decades ago..it was pricey way back when. Occasionally a cam will be tight. Recently installed a lunati that was slightly oversized on the cam bearing journals. I polished them down in a lathe rather then messing w the bearings.

We've also noticed Different dcr calculators use a different number then 1.2...Not sure where that number is from either, I suspect it doesn't matter as long as your consistent from engine to engine. It also seems to affect cranking pressure calculators. For that reason...Once you familiarize yourself w a certain calculator it's difficult compare one number to another from a different calculator. A dcr calculator using a. 050 closing event makes little sense to me. The closing rates on cams are vastly different. To further complicate it, cam ratings are just an average and don't say whether Symmetric or assymetric . A while back we "tried" to get a more accurate dcr on a XE... we measured a 268xe @.006. We now add 3or4 degrees to a XE to compare it to other cams on the dcr calculator. Adding 4 degrees to a 268xe gets the dcr in the upper 7's @10:1.

We are using a program from a engine software designer that figures minimum octane requirement, dcr is part of it. He was kind enough to let us download it and play with engine numbers.:) Not sure if it's available for sale yet. His calculator showed this engine requiring 91-92 octane. The 262xe was higher yet,
Click to expand...

Thanks Curiousyellow71. I'm just an enthusiast trying to better understand the various relationships in the engine build.
I have used a few different Engine simulation packages. The most expensive I have is the Dynomation 6, but it does not have any calculations that indicate fuel octane requirements. Many calculations I look at are just in an Excel spreadsheet I made up years ago and update very once in awhile.
It is interesting looking at the inter-relationship of parts. Like a shorter rod would have a higher DCR than a longer rod with the same IVC point.
Also as mentioned, I don't use 0.006 for solid lifter cams, Valve lash will make a difference.
Overall, it is just a guess for comparison sake, and actually calculated at zero, or near zero RPM. RPM is not even a factor in the equations, but migh be taken into account in the power factor 1.2 the DCR is raised to?
 
I got the Hylift Johnson lifters ordered today. Thanks Challenger for the contact there. Was a pretty fast transaction.
 
Answering moparhusker's question lowering dynamic compression is "similiar" to lowering static compression and its ability to run on a specific octane. Different combinations have a different dcr number that work for pump gas, using the calculator helps, but it doesn't replace real world experience of knowing what works. Many other things come into play. For instance, a engine with quench should be able to run a higher dcr then a engine w no quench on the same gas. How quench helps is when the combustion is compressed in the quench area it forces the flame across the chamber for a more efficient burn. Being more efficient it needs less timing to make full power. Running less total timing is less detonation prone. Example being a engine w good quench typically makes full power at 32 degrees. A open chamber engine(no quench) typically needs 36 degrees to make full power. So how much higher of a dcr can be run equivalent to backing off the timing 4 degrees? That becomes the question answered in the real world? But the calculators don't know if the engine has quench, or if the heads are iron or aluminum, or if your in the desert or winter, and the info out is only as good as the data in.

@451Mopar
You might consider Carfor, if you don't have it already? Its economical, has a bunch of calculators from Stan Weiss.. We've had a few programs as well over the years but not at the same level as dymomation 6! I think we have dynosim5+ from comp cams.
We don't use .006 for solids either. The closing event is at the valve so lash has to be figured in.
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/index.html
 
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I had ordered the Clevite SH876S cam bearings from Mancini. Later got a call from the salesman that the set they had was a return and found some scoring on the bearings and that was the only set the had. I will call another place on Monday to see if they still have a set.

If they don’t have a set, then I will look at these two from Durabond.
Performance:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dur-pdp-17

Performance coated (Fluoropolymer - dry film):
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/DUR-PDP-17T

Does anyone have experience with the coated version and is it worth the extra $26 over the non coated?

Talked to the machine shop yesterday. He had the block tanked and was hoping to get the bores checked. Assume he will call on Monday to let me know how much it needs to be bored.

He also said that he could do a mock-up with the new pistons to get an accurate reading on how much the block needs to be milled to get to .013 in the hole. Said it is just his shop labor rate, so this should be more accurate than just measuring.

Also asked him to grind out any casting flash that he finds internally to the engine. I also asked him to clean off the burrs from the crank where the rod journals were bored. Big old chunk of metal on it, just waiting to come off and ruin something. Not sure why the factory didn’t do a little better job of cleaning that up.

Called Melling yesterday to talk oil pumps. He said that if I was putting a new pump on an old engine or if I had a newly rebuilt engine running loose bearing tolerances, then I would want the M-63HV. He said if I am rebuilding the engine to factory bearing tolerances, then the M-63 would be fine, so that is what I ended up ordering.

Also figuring out about the windage tray and if I need to order one. I asked the Mancini guy about it and he said it is not necessary. I do understand what it is used for and it it makes sense to me. Seems like there is a plethora of options. Is the Mancini kit good enough? Molar Performance? Baffled, holes drilled?

Got the cam yesterday and the main bolts today, so still moving forward on getting parts.

Thanks again for all of your feedback!
 
I cleaned my cam bores with emery, slammed the coated durabonds in with a snap on tool myself, and a mopar performance cam slid in and turned with my fingers..a comp cam did not. Anyway yes they are good, worth that much....only if your cam fits.
 
The oil pump is easy to update if you want more oil pressure. Bb is pretty much the easiest oil pump to change out of any engine.:thumbsup:
We shoot for oil clearance of .0025 on rods and .003-.0035 on mains. We chamfer the crank oil holes as well. We usually do the M-63hv on 440s.
Either cam bearing is fine. I've seen the coating scuff up easy but it's usually cosmetic. We had the same issue as 4406bbl recently...the cam was tight. It was a lunati...but lunati is owned by comp. Likely the same grinder.
 
My point is inform your builder so he knows that some cams have been shipping big. A lot of shops just scrape the bearings and never measure the cam. I have several cams I know are right, if they fit I know the new cam has issues. Most good shops, oldtimers have a test cam for all the popular engines. Unlike curious I have a recent lunati 268 cam that went right in..so you never know. In my case the comp was .0012 too big, every journal.
 
So, do they typically grind down the cam or scrape out the bearings?

Well, i now have the cam and i will have the bearings, so is it as simple as me trying the bearings on the cam before taking them to the machine shop? Or, when it is installed, does it compress it enough that it won't fit through there?

I have not asked the machinist what his process is for the installs. I watched an episode of Nick's garage, where he installed the cam bearings and cam. Did one bearing at a time and checked the fit after each one. Not sure if the machinist goes to that level or not. Seems like a lot to ask, but if you want it done right, that may be the best option.

Does anyone know anything about the Total Seal gapless rings? I think it is just too much extra expense over a normal set of Moly rings.
 
Just run the regular Moly Rings....
and regarding Oil Clearance.... if they are regrinding your Crankshaft ?
important
tell them to grind it to 'lowside'(small) side of the tolerance, that way you can get .0025" on the Rod Brgs and .003" on the Mains which is better for 400-500 hp HotRod stuff that you intend DRIVE, and we typically default to the M63HV for those Bearing Clrcs.

"Stock" Clrcs of .0015" on the Rods and .002" on the Mains is a BAD idea.... which people typically wonder why later when it runs HOT ? and has Brg problems ?
What part of "450 HP" or so is "stock" ?
 
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Challenger340 said:
Just run the regular Moly Rings....
and regarding Oil Clearance.... if they are regrinding your Crankshaft ?
important
tell them to grind it to 'lowside'(small) side of the tolerance, that way you can get .0025" on the Rod Brgs and .003" on the Mains which is better for 400-500 hp HotRod stuff that you intend DRIVE, and we typically default to the M63HV for those Bearing Clrcs.

"Stock" Clrcs of .0015" on the Rods and .002" on the Mains is a BAD idea.... which people typically wonder why later when it runs HOT ? and has Brg problems ?
What part of "450 HP" or so is "stock" ?
Click to expand...

I guess that will teach me for trying to get a jump on ordering parts. I will call them on Monday to see if I can swap out for the HV.

I guess I had not picked up on leaving the tolerances a little loose and why that is important. Once this engine is built I probably need to put together a recap thread with all of the learnings.

Thank you again for all of your input. No doubt in my mind I will end up with a much better build thanks to all of the expert advice I have received.

I will talk to the machinist and hopefully do a good job of explaining this. I know he is very experienced, so I am sure it won’t take too much explanation.
 
No you canno
MoparHusker said:
So, do they typically grind down the cam or scrape out the bearings?

Well, i now have the cam and i will have the bearings, so is it as simple as me trying the bearings on the cam before taking them to the machine shop? Or, when it is installed, does it compress it enough that it won't fit through there?

I have not asked the machinist what his process is for the installs. I watched an episode of Nick's garage, where he installed the cam bearings and cam. Did one bearing at a time and checked the fit after each one. Not sure if the machinist goes to that level or not. Seems like a lot to ask, but if you want it done right, that may be the best option.

Does anyone know anything about the Total Seal gapless rings? I think it is just too much extra expense over a normal set of Moly rings.
Click to expand...
No you cannot just try the bearings as they get a little smaller when beat in the block. How they fit the cam depends on the block, some have to be scraped, but they should at least measure the cam. Some shops just scrape because mopars have bad reputation for cam bearing problems and never measure anything.
 
You need to check "in the block". Measuring seems like a very good idea to verify cam quality, but it's how it actually fits in the block that is critical. I completely forgot that my 1st builder had a "test cam" that he used before fitting the cam I was going to use. IIRC if the cam was tight, there were limited areas of the bearing that needed scraping.
 
MoparHusker said:
I guess that will teach me for trying to get a jump on ordering parts. I will call them on Monday to see if I can swap out for the HV.

I guess I had not picked up on leaving the tolerances a little loose and why that is important. Once this engine is built I probably need to put together a recap thread with all of the learnings.

Thank you again for all of your input. No doubt in my mind I will end up with a much better build thanks to all of the expert advice I have received.

I will talk to the machinist and hopefully do a good job of explaining this. I know he is very experienced, so I am sure it won’t take too much explanation.
Click to expand...

Show this to your Machinist as well OK ?

The factory '68-'70 "Magnum" or "HP" intended WEDGE Engines(NON Hemi) were assembled on a 'sideline'.... mainly because Chrysler was indeed offering a warranty on them the same as their low-perf brethren.... albeit, outputs and the intended usages in RoadRunners, SuperBee's, Charger R/T's etc was well known and "marketed" for exactly that.

On this 'side' assembly line so as NOT to slow up production generally.... and provide slightly enhanced Brg Clrc's what happened on the HP Engines was this:
Engine clearances were adjusted "slightly" by Parts selection during assembly....
* "C" Pistons went in "D" Holes instead of D Pistons....."D" Pistons went in "E" holes instead pf E Pistons, etc., etc. to provide EXTRA .0005" Piston to Wall
* Crankshafts were ground towards the "lowside" (small side of the tolerance)... to provide an EXTRA ~ .0005" or so Vertical Brg clearance depending.... the Rod & Piston assemblies being otherwise the same as the NON-HP Engines received.
* Windage Trays, Hotter Cam, and Heads W/Better Valve Springs, Specific Carbs, Dizzies and the HP Exh Manifolds as well as paint were also applied.

In the aftermarket Performance Engine Rebuilding world....
we very soon realized it was FAR easier to blueprint internal Bearing Clearances by following the factories lead way back when.... by regrinding all our Cranks to LOWSIDE(small end of the tolerance).... so as when ReSizing the Rods we could obtain vertical Bearing Clearances more conducive for HP Usage..... while still maintaining our Connecting Rod Sizing within tolerance for good crush on the Bearing.

Ford HP Assembly and GM Tonawonda HP Engine Plants did the same thing.
You aren't building a Mom & Pop "C" Body Newport Engine now are you ?
 
Thanks for posting this, that is why to original hp motors screamed for 90-100,000 miles....unless it was a cowboy shifted 4-speed
I also believe the cam bearings were finished machined in the block.
 
Pontiacs were assembled at Tonawanda and they all have the letters on each part like described. Interesting stuff.

I should have mentioned why .0025 on rods and .003 on mains is needed. Learned the hard way! The very first 440 we did in' 92 was a rering/new bearing job. It was a non-hp out of a 300 chrysler. The bearing clearances were minimum spec when we checked it. We were concerned but figured it would be ok since it's the way it was, but w new parts. Shortly after... we were out running back to back quarter mile blasts shifting @5500... All of a sudden smoke poured out under the hood..we thought the car was on fire. We melted EVERY bearing in the engine, fuzing them to the crank. That is what stock bearing clearances and hot rodding can do.

Mopar journals are relatively large...they need the clearance. The old rule .001 per inch journal clearance holds pretty true and 10 psi per 1000 rpm is a pretty good general way to build a performance engine. I occasional read guys going .0015 and using 5w30 on big blocks, like a newer car....Imo..its just a really bad idea. Especially when we already know what works.
 
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Challenger340 said:
You aren't building a Mom & Pop "C" Body Newport Engine now are you ?
Click to expand...
Well, I think from looking at the stamping on the block, the engine came out of a "C" body, Monaco or Polara. But yes, I will get all of the information to the machinist.

I do want to understand about the Piston to Wall clearance. Are you saying I need to have him overbore by .0005 or if it is a .030 bore, hone the last .0005 to get the additional clearance. I think I am set on what I need to communicate on the crank grinds.

I am sure he has done this all before, but with the shop he is working in, they do everything and don't necessarily specialize in anything.

Speaking of oil, I had purchased a bunch of Valvoline High Mileage oil and some Sea Foam, because at that point I was not planning to pull the engine. Was going to drain the oil, fill it up with the new oil and Sea Foam and run it for a while and drain it and fill it up with fresh oil. So, may have to use on one of my other vehicles. So, for the newly rebuilt engine, what is the recommended oil to use and the weight? I have been using Quaker State in my vehicles for quite a few years, other than if I go through the Valvoline place to get my oil changed. Am I running 10w40 in it? Obviously need to get the zinc additive to put in there as well.

Cam bearings I am tempted to just go with the Durabond PDP-17 and not the coated. With either the Clevite SH876S or the Durabond PDP-17T, I would be concerned that if the bearings have to be scraped for final fit, it is going to scrape off the coating on that thin inner layer, maybe the PDP-17 has a thin layer as well. I think Durabond makes the oversize bearings, .010 over sized, but not sure the machinist has the proper tools to clean up the cam bore to better fit the new bearings. I was not able to get the cam pulled out and just left that for the machinist to pull out. I am sure I could have gotten it out, but really did not want to have to beat on it.

Is it recommended to put a cam button in the engine? I had seen that mentioned a couple of times and just figured out what it was referring to.

Thanks again for all of the input!
 
Common error on the big blocks is to damage the cam trying to remove it with the fuel pump pushrod still in.
You don't need a cam button for a hydraulic flat tappet.
I really wouldn't worry about the cam bearings, I hate the scraping concept but the reality is...even when scraping is done it rarely gives trouble, cam bearings just don't see much load. Best you can do is have your builder do as described in post 78 from 451mopar about cleaning up the oil holes before installing the bearings. Very rare to have the cam tunnel rebored for oversized bearing. Not many shops can even do it.

The aftermarket pistons will have a recommended clearance.
 
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