440 to 512 build

[BSB67]

I'm with you, Zack....All this for a street car? I'm sure there are members who will make good use of all the technical information, and it is interesting to read, but for a street cruiser, too confusing and overkill....JMHO

If there are items in my post that are not clear let me know and I'll add some detail or pics. Really nothing sophisticated.

 

[m79ded]

I put together a 451 B engine with TF240 heads and I had Tim @ Hughes help me pick out a cam and was very pleased. I also had one ground by Bullet and that did pretty good also. Had a few Hyd roller cams and they got into the 570 HP range and then Tim suggested a solid flat tappet for valve control. Let me tell you it picked up about 30 hp and a whole heap of torque. Tried a few tests on different engines 440,451,470,512 and hyd roller and solid flats. Every time we used a solid flat it just plain and simple did better that the hydr roller. Yeah have to adjust them once a year but it sounds great and the car pulls like a SOB. Lot less $$$$ also. And that's from a 451 with 10.75 comp

 

[Paul_G]

I am not against a solid flat tappet cam. I have been adjusting solid lifters for decades, no big deal. A solid cam was my first choice, however the latest and greatest thing today is a retrofit roller cams for everything. No special oil needed and faster ramp rates with the roller. But still, a solid cam may be considered.

 

[cryplydog]

Paul, for a street hotrod engine I have always ran solid flat tappet cams with adjustable rockers.Now I use Trend tool steel solid lifters with the edm hole in the face. I have never used a cam over .550 lift for a street engine. the H-13 lifters weigh I think 68 grams as opposed to 113 grams factory and the push rod seat is much further down in the lifter as opposed to way up on top somewhere which is an improvement to valve timing! I would get a quality roller tip rocker system that doesn't have the needle roller tip for hot street/drag maybe like the hughs or mancini/harlans that are bushed at the shaft. now that you would have considerably lighter weight lifters and rockers with a reasonable cam where you are all in at say 5500+or- you wouldn't need heavy whoopass push rods either and can use 5/16- .080 thou. probably would work just fine with taking into consideration the weight savings of the Titanium valve retainers on the TF heads and just guessing a 15+- gram reduction there and I believe that figure is conservative at that.With all the valvetrain weight savings now you wouldn't need as heavy valve springs in both installed pressure and gram weight. Pac racing springs have the ovate beehive springs that are smaller in mass and weight at75 grams with a 5.7 gram retainer! My fancy h-13 retainers weighed 21 grams and my dual springs weighed 117 grams. I don't know if TF would sell heads with valves guides and seals only but if you are going to buy all this stuff new this would be the time. No need to buy springs and retainers with keepers if you not going to use them. I've read and heard about all the carnage of cams going flat and have seen all the carnage of roller cams and gear and the mess and replacement costs, wow. I would say that most problems were improper parts, install and adjustment or not a correct "kit". And lack of experience Not a Race Engine Builder. I prefer solid flat tappet because I under stand them and they were virtually in everything when I was a kid Solids are generally known to run cooler if lashed correctly. the valve hits the seat with finality and rests so to speak, the spring pac tops out, the rocker arm has clearance at all 3 points, the push rod has lash at both ends and the lifter is at lash on both ends and everything relaxes just for a moment and the hydrodynamic oil film is replaced. They really don't have any lubrication requirements other than clean oil and the proper grade/weight. now hydraulic lifters are a different animal to me and they work just fine on regular engines where there is always preload involved and the more rpm the oil pressure goes up and is supposed to bleed of as necessary within reason but the valve slows way down and somehow majically is supposed to seat as well as all the other components listed above. Hot oil, cold oil. lightweight oil, heavy oil,multi viscosity oil, cheap oil, expensive oil, dirty oil. OK, i'm done. Solid lifter engines just plain tune easier in my opinion and I only run the valves 1 or 2 times a season and I run the piss out of them. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Officer Higgins]

Fwiw might give Engle cams a call just see what they say. I have had good luck with them and they know mopars.

 

[dvw]

Dwayne Porter won't steer you wrong. Has many of these type builds under his belt. My bet is a cam similar to the trick flow kit would run well. It makes 500lb/ft from 3000 up on a smaller motor. Now as far as going 10's. With roughly 600-625HP (non corrected) at 4000lbs (4200lbs w/driver?) with a 3.91 and a street converter? I don't think that is going to happen. However as a street friendly car that runs 11's, yes
Doug

 

[BSB67]

[QUOTE="dvw, post: 911022172, member: 2923"..... Now as far as going 10's. With roughly 600-625HP (non corrected) at 4000lbs (4200lbs w/driver?) with a 3.91 and a street converter? I don't think that is going to happen. However as a street friendly car that runs 11's, yes
Doug[/QUOTE]

I think 10s is his compression ratio goal.

 

[wyrmrider]

Paul G
You mechanically can't get faster ramp rates with a roller unless you go inverse radius on the flank
solid cams are good choices I don't mind the adjustment it's lifter wear EDM required, tool steel, coated, etc
cheers

Dog agree on the lift for the street
lifter weight does not matter nearly as much as valve side weight but helps
I don't see where the seat affects valve timing but I like the better pushrod angle
which does change the pushrod angle variance so wold affect timing
Our tests showed that with long pushrods bigger was always better, even larger diameter thin-wall over 5/6 heavy wall
Tested on Chevy 6 and Truck Blocks but I see no reason why mopar is not the same
Roller tip rocker system you need to raise the shafts- Iron rockers work fine
lots of other good points

Officer
Agree abut Engle however I have bought no cams from them since Jack died
I also like Mike Jones for Flat Tappet and he flat out has the best roller profiles

dvw
Porter, Hughes, Jim at Racer Brown and many others have Mopar experience
what irks me are the chevy guys manning the tech lines at most camgrinders
MIke Jones/ Rick Jones Controlled Induction software can nail a cam without all the BS

 

[andyf]

You guys are doing the typical Moparts thing of turning every thread into a Pro Stock build clinic. The OP has a 4000 lb car with an automatic that he wants to run nice and smooth to car shows with the AC running. Stop trying to build a race engine. All he needs is a mild hyd flat tappet cam or perhaps a mild hyd roller cam. Something in the 230 duration range would probably work just fine and give him plenty of vacuum at idle for his power brakes. Too much duration will be a problem with his combo since the OD is going to drop the engine down in the 1500 to 2000 rpm range on the freeway. If the cam has too much duration it is going to run like crap in overdrive and kill all the fun from the build. The cam needs to stay on the small side to work with OD.

 

[wyrmrider]

Paul
If FT or Roller hyd or solid get an opinion from Mike Jones
If roller his inverse flank rollers are about 8 degrees shorter on the seat for the same upper profile and made them run outrageous RPM for 500 miles in the Indy buicks
Everyone talks about squeezing the lobe centers together and advancing the intake closed 4 degrees to band aid too much seat duration (no matter what the compression)
4 Degrees is a big deal on a mopar with all the short dwell of a long rod motor around BDD
With Mike's cam they come that way already
you can run a cam that's around 8 degrees shorter and still run as good up top
http://jonescams.com/street-performance/

Agree 100% with andy f
let me know when you are ready to detail block and heads and I'll post up my checklist
cheers

 

[wyrmrider]

Paul
here's another way to do it
https://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2523879

To get a camshaft recommendation calculated from the CI 2020 software, email the information listed below to [email protected].

Send values for bore, stroke, rod length, valve diameters, valve stem diameters, throat diameters (if possible), compression, fuel type,
if Nos give HP Shot, port flow CFM @ .500", .600", Rocker Arm Ratios, Solid or Hydraulic, Desired Peak HP RPM and Maximum or Shift RPM.
The software asks for port flows with intake manifold attached and it calculates the required tuning lengths.
It also calculates the exhaust tuning points.
need to know the Peak HP RPM to calculate the time available to fill the cylinder. You are jacking off without that number.
going to the end Rick can generate intake and exhaust profiles which can be custom ground with CNC grinder
IDK how it would work on a street car but find out
cheers
__________________

 

[moper]

You guys are doing the typical Moparts thing of turning every thread into a Pro Stock build clinic. The OP has a 4000 lb car with an automatic that he wants to run nice and smooth to car shows with the AC running. Stop trying to build a race engine. All he needs is a mild hyd flat tappet cam or perhaps a mild hyd roller cam. Something in the 230 duration range would probably work just fine and give him plenty of vacuum at idle for his power brakes. Too much duration will be a problem with his combo since the OD is going to drop the engine down in the 1500 to 2000 rpm range on the freeway. If the cam has too much duration it is going to run like crap in overdrive and kill all the fun from the build. The cam needs to stay on the small side to work with OD.

I already "Liked"this one. I wanted to "Agree" too Andy.

Good machine work will give more return on investment than a cam will.
I'm not a fan of hydraulic rollers but will run one if the owner wants it. You cannot get a faster ramp in hydraulic anything than solid anything - and the lifters are heavy, and problematic unless you're good with setting things up.
Have the rods cycled using the correct ARP lube, then have them checked for roundness and measure the crank closely. There will be taper and size variances but if it's within acceptable specs (factory specs are fine) it will be fine.

 

[wyrmrider]

good machine work should be a given- insist on it
AFIK Johnson is only source of BBM HR kits- anyone else?
also no one has a MOPAR size HR wheel - anyone seen anything else
"Comp probably has 20 different hydraulic roller lobe styles/families and probably 10+ lobe sizes in each lobe family."
Eliminate all the ones for the inadequate sized wheel and wrong base circle- what you got left?
Unfortunately, while Mopar allows for a larger wheel, cutting down on side thrust, the Base Circle is not that big

 

[BSB67]

"Comp probably has 20 different hydraulic roller lobe styles/families and probably 10+ lobe sizes in each lobe family."
Eliminate all the ones for the inadequate sized wheel and wrong base circle- what you got left?[ /QUOTE]

A bunch. And of course you can run a cam with a smaller BC and any roller wheel dia as long as it fits in the block. So some of you valve timing moves around a little, so what. I'm pretty sure that most generic lobes (I.e. most in the lobe catalog) are spec'd with the SBC BC and roller anyways. But I don't think this has anything to do with providing meaningful feedback or info to the op.

 

[m79ded]

good machine work should be a given- insist on it
AFIK Johnson is only source of BBM HR kits- anyone else?
also no one has a MOPAR size HR wheel - anyone seen anything else
"Comp probably has 20 different hydraulic roller lobe styles/families and probably 10+ lobe sizes in each lobe family."
Eliminate all the ones for the inadequate sized wheel and wrong base circle- what you got left?
Unfortunately, while Mopar allows for a larger wheel, cutting down on side thrust, the Base Circle is not that big

I have seen guys also use Morel lifters. They are pretty good. I totally agree with Andyf in keeping duration down because of RPM @ 60mph will be low. The reason I mentioned solids in earlier posts is that I have continuously seen solid flat tappet and especially with EDM lifters outperform hydr roller grinds with alot less $$ in valve train and easier on parts. Just trying to help out our fellow Mopar guy.

 

[wyrmrider]

of course you can run a Buick sized SBC stroker base circle in your BBC or BBM but why would you
why leave performance on the table
There are lots of BBC sized profiles out there that work measurably better than SBC or Buick Profiles
and even BBC sized profiles for those BBC builders that open up their lifter bores for .904 MOPAR or 1" keyed lifters just so they can run a MOPAR sized roller- why do they do it and we not insist on proper parts for out builds
why do they bore their cam tunnels so they can run a bigger base circle?
I'll say it again m78ded emphaised
I totally agree with Andyf in keeping duration down because of RPM @ 60mph will be low. The reason I mentioned solids in earlier posts is that I have continuously seen solid flat tappet and especially with EDM lifters outperform hydr roller grinds with alot less $$ in valve train and easier on parts. Just trying to help out our fellow Mopar guy.

OD trans 2000 rpm cruze you want to give up nothing at 2000
recall the old David Vizard tests
with a 9:1 CR, a 265-degree cam produced (the gray curves of Figure 12.6) some decent results from low RPM on up.

This cam was then substituted for a 285-degree cam.
On the same 9:1 CR (blue curves of Figure 12.6) this bigger cam dropped 38 ft-lbs of torque at 1,750 rpm.
that amounts to a 32-percent reduction.
The extra duration did not start to pay off until 3,750 rpm.

I'll stick with my cam choice unless OP wants to go FT or Hyd Roller

 

[Paul_G]

Made my first call to Comp cams, tech recommended two roller cams. XR286HR-10, XR280HR-10. He prefers the smaller one for better drivability, and will make better torque at lower RPM. The bigger will make more power at higher RPM. But he said either will work well. He would not estimate HP/TQ over the phone. So I dont know what to expect from these two?

XR286HR-10, 23-712-9
RPM range 2200 to 6000
Lift .544/.541
Duration @.050 236/242
lobe separation 110
Intake centerline 106
Intake open 12
intake close 44
exhaust close 7
exhaust open 55
valve spring 925-16/26120-16


XR280HR-10, 23-711-9
Lift .541/.537
Duration 230/236
lobe separation 110
Intake centerline 106
Intake open 9
Intake close 41
Exhaust close 4
Exhaust open 52
Valve spring 925-16/26120-16

 

[Hemiwes]

I went your planned route and LOVE this engine. I've got a 493 stroker, SCAT rods/crank, Icon pistons, TF top end kit (execept replaced the TF single plane with an RPM for hood clearance), hedman shorty headers, and FI tech fuel injection. I absolutely LOVE this combination. Haven't dynoed it, but the butt dyno tells me it HAS to be atleast 600 HP and high 500's torque.

 

[Paul_G]

I went your planned route and LOVE this engine. I've got a 493 stroker, SCAT rods/crank, Icon pistons, TF top end kit (execept replaced the TF single plane with an RPM for hood clearance), hedman shorty headers, and FI tech fuel injection. I absolutely LOVE this combination. Haven't dynoed it, but the butt dyno tells me it HAS to be atleast 600 HP and high 500's torque.

Did you use the trick flow recommended cam? If so how does it idle? Does it make much vacuum?

 

[wyrmrider]

crap paul
don't call the comp cams tech line
they do not know mopars
you'll get four different answers from four different techs
you have to much time in this build
all the conversion kits from everyone AFIK are made by Johnson
Mike Jones has the best masters- fill out his card
http://jonescams.com/street-performance/
but hard to compare his IR profiles with others