440 to 512 build

[Paul_G]

crap paul
don't call the comp cams tech line
they do not know mopars
you'll get four different answers from four different techs
you have to much time in this build
all the conversion kits from everyone AFIK are made by Johnson
Mike Jones has the best masters- fill out his card
http://jonescams.com/street-performance/
but hard to compare his IR profiles with others

That was my first call. saving the best for last.

 

[wyrmrider]

for Mopar rollers Jones is my first choice actually for any roller
Then Engle
Then Lunati or Howard
start checking for full lube lifters like howard has
they use AMC or Magnum bodies with BBM tiebars to give you oil to the rocker balls
cheers
(but remember I'm in LA and have worked much more with the SO Cal grinders than the back east guys) customers usually supplied non So Cal grinds
and disclaimer- Jones' (both of them) used to be in SO Cal and I think their dad Dick was a genius and was very helpful to our Indy program- but we used an Ed Winfield cam- I think Mike may have the master

 

[BSB67]

of course you can run a Buick sized SBC stroker base circle in your BBC or BBM but why would you
why leave performance on the table
There are lots of BBC sized profiles out there that work measurably better than SBC or Buick Profiles
and even BBC sized profiles for those BBC builders that open up their lifter bores for .904 MOPAR or 1" keyed lifters just so they can run a MOPAR sized roller- why do they do it and we not insist on proper parts for out builds
why do they bore their cam tunnels so they can run a bigger base circle?

You missed the point

 

[wyrmrider]

we were talking about all the varieties of mostly SBC chevy roller series available
eliminate them and the larger Ford/ AMC and 60 mm etc what do you have left
make a list- it would be handy
now look at their shelf cams and see what families they use

 

[Paul_G]

Talked to three cam companies today. Lunati, Hughes and Jones. The guy at Lunati was a total dick. He sounded like he didn't have time to waste talking to me. Asked if I was going to order it today, if not he didn't want to waste his time. Hughes was very informative, Jones told me to just put as much info on his spec sheet as I could and he would get back with me if he had questions, fair enough.

The cams they suggested seem very different to me.

Lunati
RPM range 2600 to 6000
Duration @.050 250/260
Lift .570/.585
lobe separation 112
Intake centerline 108
Intake open s to s 47.5
intake close 83.5
exhaust close 44.5
exhaust open 96.5

Hughes
RPM range
Duration @.050 246/250
Lift . .555/.566
lobe separation 109
Intake centerline 105
Intake open 18btc
intake close 48abc
exhaust close 12atc
exhaust open 58bbc
valve spring 155st/415 op

Jones (this is all the info he sent back)
Duration @.050 236/236
Lift .360/.360 lobe lift
lobe separation 111

If Jones specced lobe lift I should multiply by 1.5 to get valve lift to compare with the others, is that correct? If so it comes out to 540" lift. This is the mildest cam of the three.

 

[m79ded]

Talked to three cam companies today. Lunati, Hughes and Jones. The guy at Lunati was a total dick. Like he didn't have time to waste talking to me. Asked if I was going to order it today, like if not he didn't want to waste his time. Hughes was very informative, Jones told me to just put as much info on his spec sheet as I could and he would get back with me if he had questions, fair enough.

The cams they suggested seem very different to me.

Lunati
RPM range 2600 to 6000
Duration @.050 250/260
Lift .570/.585
lobe separation 112
Intake centerline 108
Intake open s to s 47.5
intake close 83.5
exhaust close 44.5
exhaust open 96.5

Hughes
RPM range
Duration @.050 246/250
Lift . .555/.566
lobe separation 109
Intake centerline 105
Intake open 18btc
intake close 48abc
exhaust close 12atc
exhaust open 58bbc
valve spring 155st/415 op

Jones (this is all the info he sent back)
Duration @.050 236/236
Lift .360/.360 lobe lift
lobe separation 111

If Jones specced lobe lift I should multiply by 1.5 to get valve lift to compare with the others, is that correct? If so it comes out to 540" lift. This is the mildest cam of the three.

I would prefer the hughes and ask him to cut it @ 112 like the lunati. That will make good vacuum and be smooth, run a/c. Pick the cam according to your needs and you will be happy

 

[wyrmrider]

The comp 280 is the mildest of the bunch
problem I have is that the comp website says valve timing at .006 lift but they give the timing- which U show at .050 which is only useful for degreeing in the cam not useful for DCR calcs
Jones cam is next and you really can't easily compare just given the .050 durations as Jones Inverse Radius profiles can be 8 degrees bigger than their seat timing still plenty at .050
Jones has 3 .540 lift profiles on his website I don't see a 236
http://jonescams.com/hydraulic-roller-tappet/
276 230 151
284 234 155
288 242 162
each may be for a different weight valvetrain, rev range, etc and each can take a different spring
let him pick once he has all the details- like head flows and exhaust and intake etc
he needs to know your trans and cruze rpm
there is also a 276 230 151 with 510 lift with 1.5 but may be for a high ratio rocker like BBF/ BBC
Jones software calculates DCR plus a lot more and can get close to your build


286 comp and Lunati look way too big for your street build
note Lunati does give the .006 durations but not the .050 note the intake close at close to 90 degrees ABDC and that's specked for a long rod motor

 

[coloradodave]

I'm with Andy F. Seems like every time a member asks for recommendations for a cam, carburetor, intake manifold, etc. for a STREET CRUISER, it pretty much always escalates to race motor parts. I realize some members want to show off their breadth of knowledge but IMO, it would be better served in the Race forum. When I worked the counter of a well known speed shop in an earlier life, I spent a lot of time talking guys out of the 'latest hot set-up' that they had read about in Hot Rod.
The first post is the most important to read closely: Street engine, 4,000 lbs., P/B, A/C, A/T w/OD, Lock-up converter, 3.91s & sound good. He also asked about hydraulic flat tappet verses hydraulic roller.
IMO, there is no need for anything other than a mild hydraulic flat tappet cam & kit with specs close to 230-235 duration @.050" and .480"-.500" lift.
Save the other stuff for guys looking for maximum street or race performance. There are plenty of members on this forum who want that. Again, JMO.

 

[wyrmrider]

hr is OP's request not the forum
duration @.050 is only grossly useful except for degreeing in a cam
what do you think his CR and head flow's are
I spent a lot of time talking guys out of the 'latest hot set-up' that they had read about in Hot Rod. Been there done that
and tech line cam suggestions, and the bottom of the catalog tendency
and the race cam on the street wanna bees
Pauls 's Overdrive and compression, heads, exhaust seem to get lost 230 may even be too much when you cruze around 2000 rpm

 

[coloradodave]

I don't understand the first line above. According to the OP, the C/R is mid 10s. Again, I wouldn't care about head flow in an engine meant for his application. More time, more money.

 

[wyrmrider]

Hyd Roller is Original Posters idea
I care about head flows for every application
Big heads on a small motor of Small heads on a big motor make a lot of difference
I do not think Paul has cc'd his heads and is working of of the 240 spec sheet- correct me Paul

 

[Paul_G]

Hyd Roller is Original Posters idea
I care about head flows for every application
Big heads on a small motor of Small heads on a big motor make a lot of difference
I do not think Paul has cc'd his heads and is working of of the 240 spec sheet- correct me Paul

Correct. I am going off the advertised spec from Trick Flow. Close enough for my application I would think.

Some things I think are correct to assume when building an engine;

• Better head flow makes more power
• higher compression in the mid 10 range will work with aluminum heads
• higher compression makes more power than lower compression
• cam choice must be designed around the application to make the most power without detonation

Please correct me where I am wrong.

Here is another question;
The engine I am building will have a high flow PP240 aluminum head, compression in the mid 10 range, 512 CI, mild cam. What will be the optimum ignition timing, base/total?

 

[coloradodave]

Hyd Roller is Original Posters idea
I care about head flows for every application
Big heads on a small motor of Small heads on a big motor make a lot of difference
I do not think Paul has cc'd his heads and is working of of the 240 spec sheet- correct me Paul

From original post: "Can a hydraulic roller cam do what I need it to do better than an old school hydraulic flat tappet cam?"

IMO, for a 2 ton 'street cruiser', there is no need to spend the money on a roller cam unless you're doing it for bench racing cred... Has the application changed? I'll be the last person to tell anyone how to spend their money. Now, if the OP had said " I want to make this 4,000 lb. ride as fast as possible...that's a whole other story.
Carry on guys...

 

[wyrmrider]

gotta figure in a B3 kit if roller tip rockers , which, as with the HR are not strictly necessary- but I have 300k miles on mine

• Better head flow makes more power in general yes- ignore flow above what your cam lift is you do not want the Boss 302- Boss 429 syndrome
• too much of a good thing for most applications
• 
  
• higher compression in the mid 10 range will work with aluminum heads yes especially with a modern combustion chamber, plug location and quench best to cc those heads or ask others who have used them
• also if you are using cometic gaskets check the finish I recommend checking the heads and valves
  
• higher compression makes more power than lower compression better thermodynamics-- choose your fuel first
  
• cam choice must be designed around the application to make the most power without detonation
• most power in the target rpm range- I can make more power and not be derivable in OD- cam to fit the rpm range- then power across that range

 

[m79ded]

Correct. I am going off the advertised spec from Trick Flow. Close enough for my application I would think.

Some things I think are correct to assume when building an engine;

• Better head flow makes more power
• higher compression in the mid 10 range will work with aluminum heads
• higher compression makes more power than lower compression
• cam choice must be designed around the application to make the most power without detonation

Please correct me where I am wrong.

Here is another question;
The engine I am building will have a high flow PP240 aluminum head, compression in the mid 10 range, 512 CI, mild cam. What will be the optimum ignition timing, base/total?

On my 451 I found the best timing to be @ 34 full advance. I put a blue and gray spring in the MSD billet. May I suggest that it would be a great idea to Dyno the engine, this way you break it in, check leaks and tune it for optimum power. Good luck

 

[Paul_G]

The short block is done and back in my garage. The rotating assembly looks really nice. The pistons are a dish/dome style with valve reliefs cut in.

I have it on my engine stand and wrapped up in a plastic bag. It will be a week or two till I get back to it. The crank snout has some surface rust forming on it. I had an opened bottle of trans fluid handy so I wiped some on the crank snout. Is there something I should do to keep the rest of the crank and internals from rusting while in the bag and waiting on me?

 

[wyrmrider]

WD 40 is really a Water Dispersant fog it
if you have a source of desiccant put some inside the bag
you should not be having condensation in AZ it's not MS but who knows

 

[Heimedw]

What cam did you decide to go with?

 

[andyf]

Sounds like the Comp recommendation was right in line with what I told you. For that engine and your intended use you should stay down in the 230 range for duration at 0.050. Either of those Comp grinds will work just fine. The Jones cam should also work but it will be a lot more expensive than the Comp grind and there most likely will not be any power difference in your engine. I think the Hughes and Lunati recommendations are a little large for your intended use. They might not have been clear on how heavy your car is and the fact that you want to cruise in OD.

Here is my Coronet on the chassis dyno with the 246 hyd roller. This is a 512 inch engine with cast iron manifolds and a 3.23 rear gear. The cam is just a tad bit too large for street driving. It hauls the mail once you get it over 2000 rpm but it isn't super happy down below that. So in 5th gear on the freeway I have to keep it up around 70 mph for the engine to smooth out. If I'm down around 55 mph then I have to shift down to 4th. You really need to stay conservative on the cam timing if you want to cruise down the freeway in OD. Lots of people will steer you wrong since everyone loves to brag about peak power, but if you aren't racing the car then you shouldn't get too wrapped up in the peak power game.

 

[wyrmrider]

What andyf f says about duration
and Paul is running lower cruz rpm than Andy
I disagree about Jones vs comp
The inverse profile give jones about 8 degrees to play with
we all realize that 4 degrees advanced or retarded makes a big difference
jones at the same duration as comp is a bigger cam area under the curve wise
but the big difference is in the seat duration which is hard to see
cheers