440 to 512 stroker or your thoughts please

[JohnEngland]

AndyF is there a book for finding the right timing curve. Kinda new at the game and just built a 470 with procomp heads and I believe the timing may be a culprit. The hughes cam (see attached cam card), Running 1.6 adjustable rockers with a qft 870 vac sec carb with a edelbrock rpm dual plane any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks in Advance. My current timing it 15 degrees at idle and 35 total all in at 2800rpms. i do have vac hooked up to distributor. also.

 

[andyf]

Building the correct timing curve for a performance engine takes a lot of patience, especially with an analog distributor. These days I use EFI with the computer controlling the ignition timing. That way you speed the whole process up. A Holley Sniper plus the matching Hyperspark distributor allows you to adjust the timing when the engine is running. (even driving down the road) When you can do that it becomes easy to find the timing curve that the engine likes. The old school method is just painful. Try different springs and weights until you get something that kind of works and call it good.

 

[BSB67]

Street is very subjective. My version of street could be way different from yours. Pump gas, race gas, hyd cam, solid cam, roller lifters, all depends on what you’re willing to live with and how much maint you want to do.

Exactly. And clearly, based on the discussion so far, this is not a max hp at any cost street legal deal like the OP stated. Without knowing budget, existing parts, his definition of street car, and a performance goal, I'm not sure how there can be much in meaningful guidance. Kinda sounds like your typical 650 hp deal and in the end, it'll come down to head and cam choice. But without more specifics from the OP, I'm just guessing.

 

[Bran3481]

Read the articles on my website if you want the most up to date information. What you're building is very routine for the shop I work with. 4.25 stroke, 7.10 long rods, hyd roller cam, 240 heads, etc. Those engine make 600+ torque and hp. It will have a nice smooth idle and cruise down the road like a stocker. I've helped dyno test a bunch of engines like that recently. We're putting EFI on almost all of the engines built now. The Holley dual Sniper kit would work if you want to stay with your existing intake manifold.

You just need to pick the right cam, compression and timing curve. Stay away from the race car parts and you'll be fine. You don't need race car parts to make 600 hp these days.

http://arengineering.com/tech/

Thank you for your help and time

 

[Bran3481]

I would look at Cal tracs, the other suspensions Ladder/4 link require a lot of cutting and welding. After doing research we bought a 9 1/2" dynamic torque converter that is tight for driving but stalls closer to 4000, I don't know what converter your running but from what you have described i think the 9 1/2 is a better fit..especially with more tq and hp.
Gears will depend on your tire. I love driving with 3.55. If you are wanting to run a 10.5 x29.5 then 4.10. Put a bolt in sprag In the transmission to keep the rear planetary from exploding at the track. It's hard to beat the 4.25 stroke. The heads make the hp. More displacement will make torque. If you are thinking more street then racing a 540 would be my pick. But if you are trying to push the hp a stock block will handle a 4.25 is a safe choice. With Andy's book in your hands...I don't think you will have any trouble getting the engine where you want.

I bought Andy's book! Will be here tomorrow, thank you for your help

 

[Bran3481]

Building the correct timing curve for a performance engine takes a lot of patience, especially with an analog distributor. These days I use EFI with the computer controlling the ignition timing. That way you speed the whole process up. A Holley Sniper plus the matching Hyperspark distributor allows you to adjust the timing when the engine is running. (even driving down the road) When you can do that it becomes easy to find the timing curve that the engine likes. The old school method is just painful. Try different springs and weights until you get something that kind of works and call it good.

I am running a MSD distributor now and a 6AL box - I will look into the hyperspark and the Holley sniper

 

[Bran3481]

Read the articles on my website if you want the most up to date information. What you're building is very routine for the shop I work with. 4.25 stroke, 7.10 long rods, hyd roller cam, 240 heads, etc. Those engine make 600+ torque and hp. It will have a nice smooth idle and cruise down the road like a stocker. I've helped dyno test a bunch of engines like that recently. We're putting EFI on almost all of the engines built now. The Holley dual Sniper kit would work if you want to stay with your existing intake manifold.

You just need to pick the right cam, compression and timing curve. Stay away from the race car parts and you'll be fine. You don't need race car parts to make 600 hp these days.

http://arengineering.com/tech/

Is anyone running E85 on those builds?

 

[Bran3481]

Read the articles on my website if you want the most up to date information. What you're building is very routine for the shop I work with. 4.25 stroke, 7.10 long rods, hyd roller cam, 240 heads, etc. Those engine make 600+ torque and hp. It will have a nice smooth idle and cruise down the road like a stocker. I've helped dyno test a bunch of engines like that recently. We're putting EFI on almost all of the engines built now. The Holley dual Sniper kit would work if you want to stay with your existing intake manifold.

You just need to pick the right cam, compression and timing curve. Stay away from the race car parts and you'll be fine. You don't need race car parts to make 600 hp these days.

http://arengineering.com/tech/

Do you have a preference on hyd roller cam and 240 heads is that truck flow? What about crank and rods? I have been looking into eagle performance but I would like your opinion because from what I have read so far your definitely know your stuff

 

[andyf]

If I'm building a "nice" engine I'll use a Molnar 4.25 crank with Molnar 7.100 rods and then a high quality piston such as Diamond, JE, Wiseco, CP, etc. Use the Trick Flow 240 heads and a ported Trick Flow intake. (Hughes Engines does a nice deep port match) Holley Sniper and Hyperspark distributor. I'd go with a modest hyd roller cam for a street car. Maybe something around 240/246 at 0.050 with 0.550 to 0.600 lift. I'd probably use Comp rocker arms and Gaterman lifters. Those engines cost about $15,000 to build and they'll make 615 hp with 625 torque.

The Trick Flow top end kit is a decent deal so you can look into it. I wouldn't necessarily buy those parts if I was putting a kit together myself but that kit works. I've seen several engines built locally with the top end kit in it and they work pretty well.

 

[Bran3481]

Go straight for the 537 combo. 4.500 stroke and some Trick Flow 270 heads, super-victor intAke and a dominator. Keep the compression reasonable at 10:1 and have fun on pump gas or if money is no object, build a twin turbo setup on E85 or M1.

Are there any 537 stroker kits out there?
Would you go with the 240 or 270 head?

 

[Curiousyellow71]

Are there any 537 stroker kits out there?
Would you go with the 240 or 270 head?

440 source has 4.5 kits.
A 270 head is max wedge port size. Your edy rpm intake should fit on the 240. Intakes for the 240 should have more options especially for a street car.
Depending on the build I would be concerned about the main saddles handling a 4.5 throw with the 270 heads and a stock block.

 

[Hemirunner]

Are there any 537 stroker kits out there?
Would you go with the 240 or 270 head?

As posted, 440source makes one but I prefer to use Molnar cranks and rods when possible. I would use the 270 head for a 4.500 stroke street combo provided you can work with the limited intake choices for the max wedge port. The 240 works as well if you read the thread link I posted on page 1 of this thread.

 

[Bran3481]

As posted, 440source makes one but I prefer to use Molnar cranks and rods when possible. I would use the 270 head for a 4.500 stroke street combo provided you can work with the limited intake choices for the max wedge port. The 240 works as well if you read the thread link I posted on page 1 of this thread.

Yes I read both of the links you sent and both of those builds looked absolutely amazing! Thanks for your help, I do believe I am going with an E85 and fuel injection build, however I am trying to cram as bunch information into my brain as I can on the whole E85 stuff

 

[Bran3481]

As posted, 440source makes one but I prefer to use Molnar cranks and rods when possible. I would use the 270 head for a 4.500 stroke street combo provided you can work with the limited intake choices for the max wedge port. The 240 works as well if you read the thread link I posted on page 1 of this thread.

If you were building an E-85 with your experience, and I have zero on E-85, how would you build the engine? Same as your links you already sent me? I can't find a horsepower rating on the Molnar crank or rods either would you have those numbers?

 

[Hemirunner]

If you were building an E-85 with your experience, and I have zero on E-85, how would you build the engine? Same as your links you already sent me? I can't find a horsepower rating on the Molnar crank or rods either would you have those numbers?

Tom Molnar doesn’t like horsepower ratings on parts as it doesn’t hold much meaning. A more accurate rating would be something to the effect of cycles of revolution at a given torque load. Example: A stock crank may hold 800hp/700ft-lbs but might only do it for a short number of cycles before failure . An aftermarket crank might do it for 1000x the cycles. Both are technically “rated” at 800hp but one is clearly inferior. Catching that? I’m no engineer, so call Tom if you want the first hand version.
As to E-85 use, the only things that may differ would be compression ratio and perhaps camshaft. I probably wouldn’t build it specific to E-85, especially for a street application as fuel availability differs greatly depending upon location. E-85 will produce more power through a carburetor over gas and generally has a wider tuning wider so can be more forgiving. The down side (especially in a carb situation) is that it reacts to oxygen and will tend to corrode things over time. It also eats rubber hoses and teflon (PTFE) lined hoses are recommended and are costly.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

When it comes to forged aftermarket crank and rod brands it is my understanding in terms of quality most rate molnar#1 best, scat#2,then other brands like eagle, Ohio crankshaft, 440 source a lesser... but they are also on the more economical end and can still handle good hp. The strongest cranks for big hp boosted hp builds use billet cranks instead of forged and are usually twice as expensive.
All steel has a endurance limit just like mentioned...which is how we determine the life cycle of a part. For any steel of a certain size if you know the load you can determine the life of the part and when it will fail. But crankshafts are complex and the quality of the machining and forging"defects" are all factors. In most cases the cranks will fail in those areas and that is the risk of running a lesser quality crank... the attention to detail is less.
Companies like eagle have made improvements on their parts since they were first introduced..and I think have narrowed the gap with other companies...but that is just my opinion...which is just that....a opinion.
For brands ...Bryant, Crankshaft Specialties, eagle and a scat are the only aftermarket brands I have run. So can't really speak from experience on the other brands... Keep in mind you get what you pay for in most cases.

 

[Bran3481]

When it comes to forged aftermarket crank and rod brands it is my understanding in terms of quality most rate molnar#1 best, scat#2,then other brands like eagle, Ohio crankshaft, 440 source a lesser... but they are also on the more economical end and can still handle good hp. The strongest cranks for big hp boosted hp builds use billet cranks instead of forged and are usually twice as expensive.
All steel has a endurance limit just like mentioned...which is how we determine the life cycle of a part. For any steel of a certain size if you know the load you can determine the life of the part and when it will fail. But crankshafts are complex and the quality of the machining and forging"defects" are all factors. In most cases the cranks will fail in those areas and that is the risk of running a lesser quality crank... the attention to detail is less.
Companies like eagle have made improvements on their parts since they were first introduced..and I think have narrowed the gap with other companies...but that is just my opinion...which is just that....a opinion.
For brands ...Bryant, Crankshaft Specialties, eagle and a scat are the only aftermarket brands I have run. So can't really speak from experience on the other brands... Keep in mind you get what you pay for in most cases.

Thank you!

 

[Bran3481]

Tom Molnar doesn’t like horsepower ratings on parts as it doesn’t hold much meaning. A more accurate rating would be something to the effect of cycles of revolution at a given torque load. Example: A stock crank may hold 800hp/700ft-lbs but might only do it for a short number of cycles before failure . An aftermarket crank might do it for 1000x the cycles. Both are technically “rated” at 800hp but one is clearly inferior. Catching that? I’m no engineer, so call Tom if you want the first hand version.
As to E-85 use, the only things that may differ would be compression ratio and perhaps camshaft. I probably wouldn’t build it specific to E-85, especially for a street application as fuel availability differs greatly depending upon location. E-85 will produce more power through a carburetor over gas and generally has a wider tuning wider so can be more forgiving. The down side (especially in a carb situation) is that it reacts to oxygen and will tend to corrode things over time. It also eats rubber hoses and teflon (PTFE) lined hoses are recommended and are costly.

Yes I got everything from that answer thanks!

 

[wyrmrider]

Crower makes good stuff and a tech guy is here on this forum
We used Carrillo back in the day
bent pins but lost no rods
for most 383/ 400 I just use RB rods with MP/SPS bolts
reducing the side loading with the longer rod really helps
I also use RB rods with 3.75 RB cranks in B motors

 

[Bran3481]

Crower makes good stuff and a tech guy is here on this forum
We used Carrillo back in the day
bent pins but lost no rods
for most 383/ 400 I just use RB rods with MP/SPS bolts
reducing the side loading with the longer rod really helps
I also use RB rods with 3.75 RB cranks in B motors

Thank you very much!