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'68 Satellite 4-door light refurb...and big fat engine swap.

P.S.: Just saw how much repop dash dimmer switches go for. HELL NO. If it's possible to remove it from the cast metal bits, I'm just going to 3D print a replacement for the cracked plastic bits...

-Kurt
 
Well. It's been an interesting two weeks.

With the front end all buttoned up - finally - I went to the tire shop and handed them some rough specs. I didn't know what I'd get in terms of a caster/camber balance between both the F/M/J spindles AND the one-off, -1/8" shorter UCA's from Firm Feel, but from what I've read about Mopar front suspension (and from my own experience with an A-body), getting -0.5 degrees camber and 6 degrees caster is cause for celebration!

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That celebration was short lived though. See, I'd never driven the car until I rolled out of the tire shop...and that's when I discovered this:

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Chalk up my first downright bonehead screwup in ages - after all the effort spent on the rotors too. Long story short, I wound up installing one of the rear brake pads reversed. It's VERY easy to do on the F/M/J design if you're not paying attention.

Ordered another rotor and yet more pads in the meantime and put the damaged Bendix to the side to be machined at the local parts store...again.

And so I put everything back together again, went for a drive, and no more than a mile out, it started pulling harder and harder to the right. Got out and found the rotor and caliper smoking like a steam engine. Caliper piston was seizing. No idea if it was from the whole rotor thing (probably) or whether I did a crap job of rebuilding the piston.

Ok...so one more week lost and a re-manufactured Cardone (for the amount of crap that I've dealt with with Cardone parts, I'm surprised I dared try them again for anything) caliper was installed today, along with the freshly re-machined Bendix rotor.

AND IT WORKS NOW!

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For once, after about two months (or so it seems) of jamming, banging, and fighting front end parts on this thing, it finally stops with a pair of disc brakes on it, and doesn't require a constant effort to center the wheels (admittedly, there's a tiny pull to the right still, but I should just have the shop tinker a bit more with it). It even feels pretty nice over the bumps with the Koni shocks (pity the rears won't fit - looks like it's Bilsteins for that end of the car; perhaps all four if a good deal shows up).

However...

I'm not convinced the 15/16" master cylinder is the right thing for the 11" disc + 11" drum combination; at least the one I've installed. It's a Raybestos MC36406 - a disc/drum unit for a '73-75 A-body. Though it may be providing the ideal PSI to the front calipers, the feel at the pedal is really spongy and dead. What's more, you can use almost all the travel in the pedal before the car feels as if it's even close to panic stopping - and even if you plant it, it doesn't seem overly concerned about the whole matter; doesn't feel as if it's possible to lock them up.

I know I bled the system and can feel that neither of the calipers (nor rear shoes) are dragging at this point, but I don't think this master is the right one for the job. Either that, or the softie pedal is what people like because it's not much work and feels like what you'd imagine a normal vacuum boosted system would feel like with - surprise - no booster. But it reminds me of braking done in the fashion of a sloppy steering box (which reminds me...that's another thing that needs to be tipped in the rubbish bin).

Thing is, I'm used to the minty 9" four-wheel-drum system on my Valiant. And as much derision as that setup usually gets, I paired it with a drum/drum version of a similar Raybestos master (the MC36338), and it feels great. You push the pedal just a bit and you instantly feel a stiff - but manageable - feedback against your foot that you can modulate perfectly. Then again, it might just be the self-energizing nature of the drum brake.

Might have to call Cass on this one...

-Kurt
 
Hmm. Looks like the 1970 master cylinder (Raybestos MC36221) may be a better choice. It has a 1" bore.

EDIT: The application is right, but Raybestos has the part number screwed up with the application. The MC36221 is a drum/drum master, verified by a lot of complaints on Amazon and here at FCBO: https://www.forcbodiesonly.com/mopa...-resistance-on-front-disc-brakes.24699/page-2

Raybestos doesn't even know what the hell it's for either, if you read the C-body thread.

Cardone has the "CARDONE SELECT 131515" which also claims manual disc/drum application with a 1" bore, and the picture looks right, so may have to take a gamble with that.

EDIT #2: I'm reading up just about anything I can from member Furyus, who seems to have figured out the combo with a 1-1/32" master. For my own reference, I'm going to bookmark the Raybestos MC36412 here, though I haven't verified that it is, in fact, the ideal MC for the job.

Furyus also recommends a smaller bore rear brake cylinder, but I don't know the P/N or spec for it yet.

-Kurt
 
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I'm not convinced the 15/16" master cylinder is the right thing for the 11" disc + 11" drum combination; at least the one I've installed. It's a Raybestos MC36406 - a disc/drum unit for a '73-75 A-body. Though it may be providing the ideal PSI to the front calipers, the feel at the pedal is really spongy and dead. What's more, you can use almost all the travel in the pedal before the car feels as if it's even close to panic stopping - and even if you plant it, it doesn't seem overly concerned about the whole matter; doesn't feel as if it's possible to lock them up.
Well, you've got me a little concerned. You are probably the third, or forth person to describe this symptom after a disc conversion.

I read somewhere about 'hydro lock out'; it was a situation where the rear wheel cylinders were still bottoming out too quickly and not allowing further pressure to be applied for the front. Even though the correct disc/drum proportioning block was used, the system still required a dial down to the rears to get more pressure to the fronts. The poster placed a separate adjuster in line with the rears and gained another 200psi for the fronts.

I hope this is not required in my case...........
 
Well, you've got me a little concerned. You are probably the third, or forth person to describe this symptom after a disc conversion.

I read somewhere about 'hydro lock out'; it was a situation where the rear wheel cylinders were still bottoming out too quickly and not allowing further pressure to be applied for the front. Even though the correct disc/drum proportioning block was used, the system still required a dial down to the rears to get more pressure to the fronts. The poster placed a separate adjuster in line with the rears and gained another 200psi for the fronts.

I hope this is not required in my case...........

Sounds possible, but I'm running a stock-style proportioning valve on the rear line.

From what Furyus describes, the right 1-1/32" master and the smaller-bore rear cylinders are the ticket out of this problem.

-Kurt
 
Just found the 7/8" rear cylinder - Raybestos WC37236; fits 10" or 11" drums and originally spec'ed on the following vehicles, according to Rock Auto:

CHRYSLER IMPERIAL 1968-1969
DODGE B100 1971-1977
DODGE B200 1971-1977
DODGE B300 1973-1977
DODGE D100 PICKUP 1972-1977
DODGE D150 PICKUP 1977
FARGO B200 VAN 1971-1972
FARGO D100 PICKUP 1972
PLYMOUTH PB100 1975-1977
PLYMOUTH PB100 VAN 1974
PLYMOUTH PB200 1975-1977
PLYMOUTH PB200 VAN 1974

-Kurt
 
I've been doing some Googling about, and came across some very interesting comments - from none other than SlantSixDan himself - on the subject of FMJ 2.75" calipers and master cylinder bore sizes. Read the first post and Dan's reply:

http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=452447&sid=49d84ee961f48be7195f6dde51026fe9

Both the OP and Dan are in agreement that the 2.75" FMJ calipers do best with 1-1/32" masters. And when Dan says something, those are words to heed.

It stands to reason too - consider a bit of hydraulic brake theory from Dr. Diff:

  • Increasing the master cylinder bore diameter yields a shorter, harder pedal stroke with decreased clamping force at the brake pads.
  • Decreasing the master cylinder bore diameter, yields a longer, softer pedal stroke with increased clamping force at brake pads.
  • Increasing the caliper bore diameter, yields a longer, softer pedal stroke with increased clamping force at brake pads.
  • Decreasing the caliper bore diameter yields a shorter, harder pedal stroke with decreased clamping force at the brake pads.

In short, by increasing the caliper piston bore, the loss of force and the harder pedal that one would otherwise gain from the larger bore master cylinder is mitigated.

I may be oversimplifying my understanding of hydraulics here, but it stands to reason that if you have to push a bigger piston bore full of hydraulic fluid, the amount of fluid moved by the master cylinder has to increase too (provided the pedal travel - a.k.a. the distance the MC's piston is pushed - remains mostly unchanged).

Additionally - going back to Dan's post - he also mentions that expanders were added to the rear wheel cylinder seals in 1973, eliminating the need for a residual pressure valve for the rear drums. Since I'm fooling around with rear brakes that pre-date that, I can't really be sure that the new cylinders I installed on those 11" drums - bought for a 1968 Satellite - are fitted with or without expanders (trust the aftermarket? HAH!). But I do have a suspicion that the 7/8" cylinders - by virtue of having existed into 1977 - may have had that engineering improvement trickle down to them too.

But, once again, it's the aftermarket. Anything could be in the box of Cracker Jacks.

At any rate, here is the new plan:
  • One Raybestos MC36412 master cylinder. This is a 1-1/32" master made for 1973-1976 A-Bodies and used one year (1977) on F-bodies. If it is what it claims to be, it does not have a residual pressure valve.
  • One pair of Brakeware 33605 (a.k.a. WAGNER F106006, DORMAN W37236 {#2620734, 3549835, 3838014}) rear brake cylinders. These are 7/8" bore rear brake cylinders, and the list in my previous post notes the eclectic collection of vehicles it was available on. And with any luck, these have expanders in them.
Everything is on its way already, though I'm taking a gamble buying a used MC36412 off Amazon for $9 and change. It's said to be new but with a few cosmetic flaws. If it's nice enough to be used - great. If it's ugly, but still functional, hopefully it'll at least get me to the point where I'll know whether this whole combination works.

Oh, yea, almost forgot...anyone want to buy a really nice 15/16" (Raybestos MC36406) disc/drum master cylinder? :p

-Kurt
 
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This is the best looking $10 master cylinder I've ever bought.

Wheel cylinders arrive tomorrow.

-Kurt
 
Ok, couple of things to report:

I installed the 7/8" 1971-1977 B150 wheel cylinders today. Drop in fit in the Budd 11" brakes, and a drop in fit for 10's too. One of the ones in the box (old stock) was US-made to boot!

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Also pulled back the driver's side brake adjuster two or three clicks while I was down here; seemed to sit better on the pads that way.

Anyway, I reconnected the system and bled the rears as before to test the results with the existing 15/16" master; not the 1-1/32" that came in the mail. And quite honestly - it made a big difference. The pedal feel is still a bit soft and spongy (the first 3/4" is pretty much just moving fluid), but they work well - and if you slam them hard, it'll definitely lock the fronts up.

I think the best way to describe it is that the pedal feels very similar to a vacuum boosted car when the pedal is depressed and the engine is off - without the "brick wall" feeling you get halfway through it.

Just the same, it's soft, and I'm not used to that. But given that the combo works, and the insistence (and engineering logic) of Dr. Diff that the 15/16" is the master to use with these setups, I reevaluated the Valiant's braking (my existing baseline) before letting what I thought was right get the better of me. And yes, a test drive in the Valiant did make me rethink it - not that it takes that high or brakes really firmly, but sitting static in traffic is actually a bit of a chore for the right foot. It was enough to convince me the Satellite's current config - not the Valiant's - is the better brake pedal.

And on a slightly different note, the passenger's side suspension was creaking and groaning like MAD after all of this. I thought the LCA's bushing might not be as good as I thought it was, and tried spraying a bit of lube on it. That didn't work. Re-greased all the zerk fittings. Nope. Loosened the LCA, jounced the car, and tightened it up again. Not it. Then I checked the UCA bolts, last touched by the alignment shop. They were tight...but sure as hell not tight enough! Those nuts took another good 270-360 degrees or so before they fully cinched up - and I also took the precaution of loosing them up a bit and jouncing the car, just in case they tightened 'em when the control arms were dangling loose in the air.

Geez, I frickin' hate it when anyone touches the car that isn't myself. Those UCA's are the first thing anyone but myself has done, and sure enough - turns out to be a half-assed job. That's why I'm perfectly happy with my booger welded exhaust than something custom made - because at least I know I didn't pfhluck it up.

And in other news, in between the fourth test drive of the Satellite and the first of the Valiant THIS thing showed up on the road less than 50 feet away - right where I'd drive the cars out from:

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Yes, that's bare sheared metal there! I'm happy to say that it doesn't appear to be anything from a B-body front end, and far as I know, rear end.

Wonder what it's from. The irony is that it looks to be a control arm nut.

-Kurt
 
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Thank you, Thank you, and Thank you for the updates! I'll sleep a bit better tonight knowing that a 15/16 Master Cylinder does work with 'acceptable' pedal feel.

Now if I could just get InLine Tube to send the correct parts I ordered I could proceed with my car!

Have a nice Easter.
 
Thank you, Thank you, and Thank you for the updates! I'll sleep a bit better tonight knowing that a 15/16 Master Cylinder does work with 'acceptable' pedal feel.

Now if I could just get InLine Tube to send the correct parts I ordered I could proceed with my car!

Have a nice Easter.

Your mileage may vary, as they say - but it should be workable with the 7/8" cylinders - that is, if you have the FMJ 11.75" fronts and 11" rears. I have no idea if the result will be drastically different if the rears were 10" - or for that matter, if the fronts were 10" with FMJ calipers.

And if I'm somehow wrong, I've got a 1-1/32" master all painted up and ready to be installed for more experimentation...

I bought my tubes on eBay. Turned out to be a combination of Inline (master to distribution valve) and Right Stuff (hold off valve and rear brake line). That saved me about a hundred bucks in comparison to buying the whole Inline Tube kit.

Also, I have allegiance to no supplier - especially when they have multiple listings under multiple eBay accounts. I just searched through until I found the cheapest combo for the parts I wanted and ran with it. Plus, I can yell at them on eBay if they ship slower than advertised :)

Likewise!

-Kurt
 
What you found in the road looks to be a broken wheel stud/lug nut from a 90's F350 or 1 ton truck.
 
Moving on to the cracked dimmer switch. Found the putty holding the dimmer resistance rheostat crumbling up, so I stuffed Milliput in the channel to set it back where it belongs:

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-Kurt
 
Haven't had time to futz with the dimmer switch over the week, but since the whole dash is blown apart, I took the opportunity to do the fleet wiring fix (the Mad Electrical version) and kick the amp gauge out the window (still haven't ordered the little Sunpro replacement from Amazon yet).

I made use of the rather crude hole the PO had put in the firewall for the siren wires to bypass the bulkhead. Threw in a nicer grommet and ran the wires through.

Wound up taking half the day to do it, as I soldered every connection with a non-insulated sleeve, cleaned it, wrapped it, then put heat shrink tubing around it:

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Anyone who sprays clearcoat under the hood of a completely assembled car should be flogged for an hour. Still debating how I should get the clear off the bulkhead without making a disaster.

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Not pretty, but functional. Purple wire got replaced too.

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-Kurt
 
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Quick photo summary of the day so far. Cluster has been converted to a voltmeter as well.

-Kurt
 
nice job on that cruz'r . do the cop 15x7 6 hole rims fit your disc package ? i noted you put van rims , but did not say anything regarding the cop 15's . the rear rims have 6 holes in them (car color) are those 15'' and do they fit your disc package ?
 
nice job on that cruz'r . do the cop 15x7 6 hole rims fit your disc package ? i noted you put van rims , but did not say anything regarding the cop 15's . the rear rims have 6 holes in them (car color) are those 15'' and do they fit your disc package ?

Both of the Mopar 15x7's - the B-series van 15x7's and the police 15x7's - bolt right over the discs. No problem.

-Kurt
 
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