Ceedawg
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How do you have any idea of my thoughts if you have a hard time understanding anything that I said. NOT ONCE DID I SAY, NOR IMPLIED, THE PLANE CRASHED FROM STRUCTURAL PROBLEMS! It not all good!
B - 17 crash in Connecticut.
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BeepBeepRR
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Wow.. I guess you might be a little hurt. I apologize. And will no longer continue this with you. I am done have a great day and life. When I said its all good I was not referring to the crash. I was referring to our conversation. Meaning Its all good... We have our opinions.. 
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Thats what they are saying in this video. Also he mentions they did find 100 octane in the one tank not jet fuel.
miller
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No comments on this?? Hell, I'll make one.
A 1000 feet short of the runway. What the heck was going on, in that cockpit?
No good reason for that. Even on three engines, a 17 is good to go.
'Blowing out' a radial engine? Only two things, I can think of...either blowing out a fire, no words on that. Or, the engine lower cylinders were loaded with oil, bent a link rod, smoking...but, that's a little after the fact. Too late. Hard to say.
A 1000 feet short of the runway. What the heck was going on, in that cockpit?
No good reason for that. Even on three engines, a 17 is good to go.
'Blowing out' a radial engine? Only two things, I can think of...either blowing out a fire, no words on that. Or, the engine lower cylinders were loaded with oil, bent a link rod, smoking...but, that's a little after the fact. Too late. Hard to say.
BeepBeepRR
Well-Known Member
Found this post about blowing an engine out. Something to read not sure if it explains this situation.
Radial engines - especially older large-bore designs like you find in WWII era warbirds - can suffer from a phenomenon known as hydraulic lock.
Basically while the engine is off and cooling some oil from the crankcase seeps past the piston rings in the lower cylinders, and collects there. When you try to turn the engine over with this oil in the cylinder the bottom piston contacts the oil (which is an incompressible fluid), and can't complete its travel down into the cylinder.
The stresses in the engine build until something - usually the connecting rod for that bottom piston - fails, resulting in an expensive repair bill and a grounded warbird.
To avoid this aircraft that are going to sit for a long time usually have a spark plug removed from the bottom cylinder and a hose run to an oil jug to collect the seepage.
In addition to this (or in place of it for shorter-term storage) the ground crew usually rotates the propeller through by hand enough times to ensure the bottom cylinder has gone through a compression stroke.
If there is oil in the bottom cylinder the crew will feel the hydraulic lock as extra force required to turn the propeller. They can then stop and remove a spark plug to drain the oil from the cylinder before attempting an engine start.
Radial engines - especially older large-bore designs like you find in WWII era warbirds - can suffer from a phenomenon known as hydraulic lock.
Basically while the engine is off and cooling some oil from the crankcase seeps past the piston rings in the lower cylinders, and collects there. When you try to turn the engine over with this oil in the cylinder the bottom piston contacts the oil (which is an incompressible fluid), and can't complete its travel down into the cylinder.
The stresses in the engine build until something - usually the connecting rod for that bottom piston - fails, resulting in an expensive repair bill and a grounded warbird.
To avoid this aircraft that are going to sit for a long time usually have a spark plug removed from the bottom cylinder and a hose run to an oil jug to collect the seepage.
In addition to this (or in place of it for shorter-term storage) the ground crew usually rotates the propeller through by hand enough times to ensure the bottom cylinder has gone through a compression stroke.
If there is oil in the bottom cylinder the crew will feel the hydraulic lock as extra force required to turn the propeller. They can then stop and remove a spark plug to drain the oil from the cylinder before attempting an engine start.
Top Banana
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Real sad incident as I live nearby Bradley Airport. I have flown Pipers and Cessnas into Bradley many times and all I could say is the amount of carnage had this happened just a couple miles away would have been horrible.
Supposedly she was meticulously maintained and cared for so just waiting on the NTSB for the cause. Just like us driving 50+ year old cars sometimes it’s the parts being produced today that aren’t up to spec or installer error or just a freak incident.
The pilot I believe was also a retired commercial airline pilot and an expert on B-17s with over 7000 flight hours. Heck most guys in the war never got to a 1000 total hours flying that plane. Also his communication to ATC was never under duress so that leads me to believe she was flyable and did have 4 engines should 1 or even 2 become inoperable. I hope they inform us soon and not immediately blame the plane or it’s vintage.
Supposedly she was meticulously maintained and cared for so just waiting on the NTSB for the cause. Just like us driving 50+ year old cars sometimes it’s the parts being produced today that aren’t up to spec or installer error or just a freak incident.
The pilot I believe was also a retired commercial airline pilot and an expert on B-17s with over 7000 flight hours. Heck most guys in the war never got to a 1000 total hours flying that plane. Also his communication to ATC was never under duress so that leads me to believe she was flyable and did have 4 engines should 1 or even 2 become inoperable. I hope they inform us soon and not immediately blame the plane or it’s vintage.
miller
Well-Known Member
SOP...standard operating procedure.
On any radial engine, if the engines have sat four 6 hours, or more, props get pulled through. Some do not have drain hoses on the lower cylinders. Especially early versions, like the 87/97 B-17 motors. Pulling the props, also opens/closes the valves, and most of the time, oil will come out of the exhaust stacks. But, the 17 uses an exhaust manifold. I have seen both...pulling a prop through, bending a link rod...or, pulling the blades 'backwards', some thinking that will 'suck' the oil back in. Nope! That can actually suck more oil into the cylinder, between the top of the piston, and the cylinder head. Either way...damaged engine.
Still, nothing on 1000' short of the runway. Why?? Can't/won't speculate.
Something sounds fishy. Pilot error...or something/somebody interfering with the pilot?
Sorry, sounding like a broke record. A little burned on it. Been there, on the 25, life in the driver's hands, and fully trusted him. (Even with a wing pointing straight down at the ground, wingtip 15-20 feet from it.)
BeepBeepRR
Well-Known Member
Very good assessment.
miller
Well-Known Member
As far as any parts, and pieces, made...all are 50 plus years old. Nothing wrong with them, on engine parts. You would be amazed, how many new engine parts, some dozens of different sizes, so hundreds of overhauls could be done.
It's been more than 25 years now, but have around 20 years overhauling radials. Most of them were R-1820s, many of those B-17 motors. At the last shop I worked at, before I told the 'boss' to get f**ked, know some of the 17 motors were spares...for 909. When I quit, it was over a spare engine for 909! Won't get into the story, but that engine failed on the stand, and the boss tried to blame me for it. Ain't happening!
Yep, just have to wait...
Anything on the condition of the survivors? Guess in pretty bad shape.
Top Banana
Active Member
Amazing to have a bad engine and your supervisor blames the you the tech. Of course it can’t be the mechanical part! Smh
Always a scapegoat and pretty soon watch the NTSB blame pilot error. I have been flying for 20 years as a private pilot and I always tell my wife before going out on a flight “if something happens to me to read between the lines.”
I spoke to a friend at CSP and the injuries on most of the survivors were pretty horrific and the fatalities were mostly burned beyond recognition, so sad. One retired FF passenger had flame proof gloves with him and was able to open either a hatch/canopy or door and this surely saved the remaining lives before smoke inhalation overcame everyone.
miller
Well-Known Member
Won't say much on that. (Yeah, damn me. Have hard feelings about such.) I will only hope not, unless...
Always figured any of the flyboys, are damn lucky. Always wanted to be one, but never could afford it.
It was. And, it was his choice. He owned the shop, I was the shop foreman. I built most of each engine.
And, it was the fact, he told Collins, he had just shipped out that engine...on it's way. It was still torn apart, on the engine rack! My main job was the powercase, crank, rods, nose case, and at times, the *** end. Then I final assembled the things. First part touched, is the master rod bearing. Told him the bearing was junk! Boss says, no time to replace it (odd ball size), make the bearing work.
'Boss' is always right...right? Told him, if I used that bearing, the engine would fail. He picked his poison.
Wanted me to come in, on the holiday weekend coming up, and (by myself) rebuild that engine...on my own time. I said, I'd think about it.
Had two pitchers of beer for lunch, went back and loaded my toolbox up. Shove it!
BeepBeepRR
Well-Known Member
Found this Lenos garage video on youtube.
Dipstick
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7000 hours in B-17's, maybe triple that total time.
miller
Well-Known Member
Plenty of type (B-17) time, though at 75 years old.
A few days ago, looked for any updates. There are witnesses, on the ground, who saw the crash. Besides being too low, reports say it was not in line with the center of the runway. As much as 300 feet, or yards. Don't remember which.
Maybe more news, one of these days.
Top Banana
Active Member
I think he had 20,000 hours counting his training and commercial career so yes very competent.
I trained in the service and it was free but a lot of these aspiring pilots pay for either type 61 or 141 training and it can be 50-80,000 in flight hour training costs before they even become CFI flight instructors. At that point they will usually still only have around 250-400 hours and need to work as an instructor or rent a plane and meet the 1500 hour minimum before being picked up by the regional carriers.
When I was training the minimum hours for an ATP (airline transport pilot) was only 300. Scary to think a first officer with 300 hours would be second in command of a CJ-700 but that was the rule up until the Colgan Air Crash of 2009.
I drove by Bradley a day after the crash and the carnage was still present. Pretty amazing that there were any survivors.
God bless them and wishing them all speedy recoveries.
Talked with a CAF volunteer familiar with B17 ops. Only speculation on his part but judging from statements from persons on the ground that witnessed the aircraft flying over the engines would be suspect. He told me that they are constantly on guard when the commercial fueler shows up to fuel any of their aircraft. Seems the guys that fuel aircraft really don’t require any special training plus the fact that most of them come and go because of high turn over. He said there were several incidents where the fueler showed up to refuel their aircraft carrying jet fuel. They have several volunteers now that have special training to oversee the refueling operations.
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It's been mentioned several times, different sources, that they did find 100 octane in the one tank.
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What should it be?
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100 octane
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