Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and blah

[j-c-c-62]

That was also a major factor. But, it's not baloney that the EPA and their emissions requirements, which California started in the 60's, and federally began before the first fraud gas shortage, impacted the automakers. The government emissions mandates that the existing technology could not meet. By the way, what clunker V8 do you have ?

Where we disagree about is I suspect, EVERYTHING Detroit bitched about back in time, emissions, mileage, cost, safety, etc that they said couldn't be done, wasn't cost effective, wasn't needed, was overreach etc, has been exceeded today by many factors. What Detroit was lacking was the will and truthfulness, for reasons others can decide.
And Calif had a canary in the coal mine position with fighting smog, and they became the tip of the spear early in tackling car emissions.
I can't remember recently smelling the exhaust of any nearby operating car. Ca was the leader in that success, like it or not.

 

[WileE]

Well, Ford did have their four cylinder Pinto. They sold a few. Whose fault was it that the average Datsun was nicer? Chevrolet entered the 70s with a four cylinder Vega. You might think it was a piece of crap, but that wasn't the fault of the Japanese. A few years later, the Chevette had an even smaller four cylinder and by the end of that decade was the best selling small car in America.

Besides the Pinto, Ford's Maverick had a six cylinder option almost as small as some fours, and sold over half a million in 1970 before there even was a fuel crisis, and its popularity improved after that 1973 event. When the replacement Fairmont came out, it also had a four cylinder option. So did the original Taurus, but people didn't pick that engine very often.

Meanwhile, Dusters and Darts were getting impressive gas mileage with the slant six.

And AMC, selling the Gremlin in good quantities, managed 1 mpg. less than the Vega with the standard six cylinder engine, but by 1977 were also offering a four cylinder option while simultaneously managing to improve the power output of both six cylinder engines. They also started offering an overdrive option on the Gremlin and Hornet in 1975.

So I do think there was enough development time, just not enough initiative to make use of it.

While all that is true, the government emissions mandates were forced before the first fake oil shortage of 73. The foreign automakers were way ahead in their small engines by that time.... that's all they had. So, development of the domestic 4's were hindered by the fact they had to slap on emissions crap to existing decades old technology.

 

[Hey-O]

While all that is true, the government emissions mandates were forced before the first fake oil shortage of 73. The foreign automakers were way ahead in their small engines by that time.... that's all they had. So, development of the domestic 4's were hindered by the fact they had to slap on emissions crap to existing decades old technology.

And the fact that we hated 4 or straight 6's as a society.

 

[68BabyBlue]

Appeal to the masses is the game, one size fits all.

I've had a few new vehicles in my life. The color needs to match the vehicles styling, yes, it does matter and some look better in the right color, just like a woman. At one point I was changing cars pretty regular, so White, and silver were the colors that resell the easiest. My 65 matters to me, everything else is point A to B. What does matter is that it be clean, I mean spotless. My WHITE Durango gets a bath more often than most people. The inside of wheel wells, and door openings look new and I pay to keep it that way. Most people buy a color that is better at hiding dirt. I don't like dragging my pant legs across the door threshold and ending up cleaning them with my pants. How you keep it, speaks louder than the color you picked. By the way, I've owned every color, except purple and lime green.

The son of the dealer who owned my GTX when it was new said the same in a different way - his father ordered that car to look stunning, not to sell. The cars on the dealership lot in 1969 leaned toward green and blue. He special ordered my red 2007 Chrysler 300C, the cars he kept on the lot in that era were all white, black, or silver.

 

[Cranky]

I know what ya mean. I bought one new in 2000 also. Still have it. I wanted to trade it for a 2023 Durango last year but my wife won't let it go. As you said, gas mileage sux but it has been very dependable. It has the 4.7 Jeep engine. I plan on putting collector plates on it this summer.

View attachment 1674707

View attachment 1674708

Man, that thing still looks nice but so did ours until she left me in the middle of 2017. From then on it was under a carport at her 50 year old townhouse apartment with lots of cats roaming around and yup, on top of the cars too. Ours was also black with the fender flares and 15x8 wheels. Only it wasn't a 4x4 and didn't have the mud flaps. Never was much on SUV's but I really liked that Durango....

 

[eldubb440]

the only radical change in styling over the past 30 years is what Dodge did with their trucks; everything else looks the same......... and even that hasn't changed much since it's inception

 

[Hey-O]

the only radical change in styling over the past 30 years is what Dodge with their trucks; everything else looks the same......... and even that hasn't changed much since it's inception

View attachment 1674910

Chrysler is good at, if it's not broken, don't fix it. That truck you posted was a clear winner. They never did an up date to the older truck because of the lack of engine power and when you're third place in a three truck race why bother. You can't pull a big trailer with a 360. Cummins and a new body and we were in the lead!!

 

[Photon440]

The Cummins option started in 1989, five years before the new body style.

 

[j-c-c-62]

And the fact that we hated 4 or straight 6's as a society.

Not that I disagree, but I still have my third Tacoma unopened 550,000+ mile 4 cyl.

I might also add, this last one never had it's oil changed sooner then 6K miles, it only has used Walmart 20-50 oil, and it has hauled many 5K concrete blocks on a trailer. and only gets 1 mpg less today then when new.

 

[Cranky]

Detroit screwed up and you're right. Chrysler came to the rescue with the 2.2 junk pile. Before anyone says anything, I saw these everyday by the hundreds and I'm telling you, for everyone that people say were great, I could show you dozens that couldn't make it to 50,000 without the head gasket being replaced. Before the Japanese showed up, the big three couldn't even spell the word quality. They made us become better or lose it all.

My Shadow 2dr made it to 100k before puking the head gasket. Bought it with 30k on it for cheap because the original owner tried to commit suicide by sticking a gas soaked rag into the gas fill and lighting it off then got in the car with the garage door shut. Not if he had just started the car in there and let the garage fill up with fumes he would have been successful. As it was, someone saw the smoke coming out of the garage and called the fire department and he got saved but as black as the interior was from the smoke (the car was ice blue poly with blue interior) I'm sure he damaged his lungs. Anyways, the car was in great shape except for having to fix and clean the fire damage.

And the fact that we hated 4 or straight 6's as a society.

Chevy had a pretty good running 6 in 1969 (I think it was a 69) in their pickups.....the company I worked for back then had a shop truck that surprised me with the way it ran which was pretty dang good.

the only radical change in styling over the past 30 years is what Dodge with their trucks; everything else looks the same......... and even that hasn't changed much since it's inception

View attachment 1674910

Still have my 97 diesel powered 2500 CC long bed. My GF rode in it the other day and was surprised at all the room it had in it. She couldn't believe that center fold down dinner table either lol

 

[eldubb440]

Still have my 97 diesel powered 2500 CC lone bed. My GF rode in it the other day and was surprised at all the room it had in it. She couldn't believe that center fold down dinner table either lol

buddy of mine has a 94/95? 2500 with a V10

 

[Cranky]

The Cummins option started in 1989, five years before the new body style.

Yeah but they weren't very powerful in the early years....had a 92 dually Club Cab long bed and that thing was S L O W. It ran good but my 97 could run circles around it.

 

[Photon440]

Yeah but they weren't very powerful in the early years....had a 92 dually Club Cab long bed and that thing was S L O W. It ran good but my 97 could run circles around it.

Not by today's standards, but 400 ft/lb of torque was more than the GMC 454 had back then.

 

[Hey-O]

The Cummins option started in 1989, five years before the new body style.

But it was still rehashing leftovers. Did you see what they had to do to the front suspension just to keep that old truck from calaping with that diesel. Homemade solution.

 

[Cranky]

Not by today's standards, but 400 ft/lb of torque was more than the GMC 454 had back then.

The 97 isn't exactly 'todays standard' lol but yeah, the new stuff will run circles around my 97.

But it was still rehashing leftovers. Did you see what they had to do to the front suspension just to keep that old truck from calaping with that diesel. Homemade solution.

Oh man, they did all kinds of stuff to the next gen trucks but don't know what all they did to the older gens....but there were people pulling 3 times or more than the rated weight of the trucks! I know of one guy that got his warranty voided because of doing that. He broke down with a way over loaded trailer (the trailer was rated for the load but the truck sure wasn't) and the dummy had it towed to the dealership WITH the trailer still attached lol. The dealership took pictures and then ran the trailer over the scales.

I know one thing that got changed out pretty fast and that was drive shafts. I think they did that soon after the first year diesel was introduced.

 

[Photon440]

But it was still rehashing leftovers. Did you see what they had to do to the front suspension just to keep that old truck from calaping with that diesel. Homemade solution.

Well sure, the suspension was upgraded, as well as designing new engine mounts and brackets and strengthening the frame. Not really a surprise since the Cummins was heavier than the old 440 option the truck used to get. They also improved the transmission and its cooling and used heavier-duty drive axles.

As well, the radiator was upgraded, a diesel compatible fuel delivery system installed, the wiring harness had to be changed for the diesel's electronic controls and they gave it a good exhaust system.

It didn't seem "homemade" to me, just the necessary engineering to get the job accomplished.

 

[toolmanmike]

The 97 isn't exactly 'todays standard' lol but yeah, the new stuff will run circles around my 97.

Oh man, they did all kinds of stuff to the next gen trucks but don't know what all they did to the older gens....but there were people pulling 3 times or more than the rated weight of the trucks! I know of one guy that got his warranty voided because of doing that. He broke down with a way over loaded trailer (the trailer was rated for the load but the truck sure wasn't) and the dummy had it towed to the dealership WITH the trailer still attached lol. The dealership took pictures and then ran the trailer over the scales.

I know one thing that got changed out pretty fast and that was drive shafts. I think they did that soon after the first year diesel was introduced.

I was working at the Buick/GMC dealer in the 80's. GM came out with the 5.7 diesel. It was a pooch. Then came the 6.2 which was much better but still not a Cummins or a IHC that the Fords had. We had farmers buy 4wd pick ups with the 6.5 and a OD transmission which was their 700r-4. We were having a lot of issues with those and when you put them in a 4wd with a diesel and the farmers used them like a tractor hauling corn in from the field. Lots of issues there. I had a non turbo 6.5 with a 4L80-E in my last took truck. It weighed over 16,000 and ran as good as any of the 454's I had. Diesel was a bit more expensive but it would get 10 on a good day where the gasser got 5-6.

 

[Cheapsunglasses]

I only own 1 silver car, I’m not a fan of boring silver, but the car stands out enough I can live with it

 

[Hey-O]

Well sure, the suspension was upgraded, as well as designing new engine mounts and brackets and strengthening the frame. Not really a surprise since the Cummins was heavier than the old 440 option the truck used to get. They also improved the transmission and its cooling and used heavier-duty drive axles.

As well, the radiator was upgraded, a diesel compatible fuel delivery system installed, the wiring harness had to be changed for the diesel's electronic controls and they gave it a good exhaust system.

It didn't seem "homemade" to me, just the necessary engineering to get the job accomplished.

Did you see the welded on additions to the original control arms and such. It was make shift at its best.

 

[Photon440]

Did you see the welded on additions to the original control arms and such. It was make shift at its best.

Would you have preferred that the additions were riveted on instead? Even on this forum, lots of people have welded stiffener plates onto their control arms. I knew someone with one of those original Cummins trucks, he used it for snow plowing. He had no complaints, other than spending some money to make even more torque.