Charger Build Advice

[67charger383]

+1 on 440source kit

Trying out stock stroke with 12-1 TRW domes in my 383 now, but a 496 stroker is definitely in my future.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

Have you done a compression test to see where you are at? That would tell a lot on your current engine. You would have to mill a lot off a 346 head to get 9.5:1 if you have a .040 head gasket and oem replacement .030 over pistons.
Although we shop around and put the pieces of the stroker kits together and have them balanced several companies offer kits. Lots of 440 source kits are out there and for what you are after that would be ok...I don't know the availability now days... but any kit that uses the b(400)sized counterbalances b mains and 2.2 bbc journals with bbc aftermarket rods nearly drops in with the 4.25" stroke to make a 512. Some clearancing is likely needed but minimal. Molnar kits are very good quality. We used scat h beams with icon pistons with a bryant billet crank in our latest 400 stroker.

 

[Slapstik]

@Curiousyellow71: I plan to do a compression test, but I haven't as of yet. I agree that a lot of material would need to be taken off the head, so much so, that you would not be able to use a valley pan gasket and what you'd gain in compression you'd probably lose in flow. Because I have a valley pan gasket on there and am using stock push rods and I would bet no shims on the rocker shafts I'm sure I'm darn near stock compression.

I think a stroker makes the most sense considering the weight of the car and gear I'd like to run. I'd be willing to go 3.55 or so, but I'd prefer the 3.23s. That means I need torque and that stroker would sure help in that department. On the other hand, I am a bit of a purist at heart, and I wonder what zero deck custom flat top pistons with iron closed chamber heads would give for torque with the 3.38" stroke... I'm sure not as much as the stroker, but I plan to run F70-14s, so do I really need the stroker? I think if I went for the stroker I'd go with the 451 kit. Do you know if any machining is necessary with the 3.75" stroker?

 

[BSB67]

Okay, I sense that you are pretty much walking away from your current set up. Moving on then.....

Budget: I don't have a particular budget in mind, I'm more interested in making it all it can be for the street while appearing stock. I want to run the tires and exhaust manifolds I have.

Budget and performance go hand in hand. Not having a budget, and not having a performance goal makes this nothing but idle talk (no pun)

You can make a 3.75 stroke motor (440, 451...) with iron heads, small cam (smaller than you have now), 3.23, stock converter, exhaust manifolds, P225-14 tires and 4200# car go 12s at nearly 110 mph.

or

you can make a 500 inch motor with aluminum heads and good cam in the same car with manifolds go 11s at 120 mph.

or..........

 

[Slapstik]

@BSB67: So to clarify, I mean I am not limited to a dollar amount. I can spend whatever it takes to get what I want. My performance goal is as stated: I want the car to be all it can be while maintaining a stock appearance, stock F70-14 tires, and exhaust manifolds. I don't have a horsepower number goal because I'm interested in street performance not dyno performance. There's obviously a correlation, but the number is a consequence of the right build more than the driver in my opinion. If I were to have to state a number goal I'd be inclined to say 500 or more ft lbs of torque at as low an RPM as possible. Is that helpful?

Are you suggesting that I couldn't do it with the cam I have, or that the smaller one would do it also?

 

[furious70]

You've done the basics on investigating why this engine isn't up to snuff. There are a few more things guys have said to try that don't involve tearing the engine down - I'd do those at least out of curiosity.

Your current engine is not going to be impressive even when running correctly - at most it will be 'respectable for what it is'. That would be 'making the most of your car as a street car' with that engine. If 'making the most of your car' means having something that runs like a F.A.S.T. car, then you need to step up big on the engine and chassis.

Right now it's too difficult to tell where your heart (and head) are at.

 

[Slapstik]

@furious70: I would like it to be all it can be without needing to modify its stock appearance. I'm not going to put headers on it, for example. I might make mild exceptions but certainly not any that would permanently modify the chassis or body or anything. For example I might put on aluminum heads and intake manifold but I will paint them blue, and I would pay extra for a Mopar one instead of a less expensive aftermarket one. Stuff like that. Does that make it more understandable?

 

[BSB67]

@BSB67: I want the car to be all it can be while maintaining a stock appearance, stock F70-14 tires, and exhaust manifolds. I don't have a horsepower number goal because I'm interested in street performance not dyno performance. ?

Are you suggesting that I couldn't do it with the cam I have, or that the smaller one would do it also?

Generally, that is not a great cam for use with exhaust manifolds. There are several measurements that are used to generally describe a cam size, (seat timing, 0.050 timing, 0.200" timing, lift, overlap, rate...) and yes, for enough power to go 108-110 mph in the quarter, you can do it with a littler smaller duration cam that will idle pretty well.

I'm sure you have looked, but if not check the PSMCD and FAST car results. They make considerable more power than what I'm talking about, FWIW.

The factory intake/carb is the big bottleneck. Notice how much faster the 6 pack cars are.

 

[furious70]

@furious70: I would like it to be all it can be without needing to modify its stock appearance. I'm not going to put headers on it, for example. I might make mild exceptions but certainly not any that would permanently modify the chassis or body or anything. For example I might put on aluminum heads and intake manifold but I will paint them blue, and I would pay extra for a Mopar one instead of a less expensive aftermarket one. Stuff like that. Does that make it more understandable?

If I were you I'd become friends with the F.A.S.T. guys and learn some stuff from them - there's nobody doing it better and their cars look like how you want your car to look - and spend cubic dollars doing it!

 

[Slapstik]

@BSB67: Thanks for the cam advice.

Where can I find the PSMCD and FAST results of which you speak? I have been to FAST events but I'm unaware of their rules and certainly of their specific setups.

I don't believe the intake and carburetor are causing my low vacuum and low compression. I really think the cam timing is the culprit, and I aim to confirm that soon. If I am right, that would be my bottleneck, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Slapstik]

@furious70: I have been to a couple of FAST events, but I don't know anyone unfortunately. I agree with your assessment of them though.

 

[BSB67]

@BSB67:

I don't believe the intake and carburetor are causing my low vacuum and low compression. I really think the cam timing is the culprit, and I aim to confirm that soon. If I am right, that would be my bottleneck, wouldn't you agree?

Again, as stated in post 24 I thought you moved beyond fixing your current issues as this car will never be all that it can be with this engine. Other than the block, you need to start over. Your low compression problem is simple, it's your pistons. Fixing your low vacuum will make it idle better but won't generate a bunch of power. In the end its still a low compression, 3.38" stroke motor in a 4000 lb car that is to look stock.

If you want to find another 30 hp or 40hp in this motor, that is a completely different dscussion.

 

[Slapstik]

@BSB67: Ok. So I'll have to pull the engine again. The build has 6,000 miles on it, do you think I need to send to the machine shop? Ideally, I would like to avoid the machine shop because where I live they're all Chevy guys and have the guy that cleans the turlet trow the engines like mine together. I will be changing pistons and rings, do you think I'll need to hone the cylinders?

Regarding the rotating assembly, if I keep the 3.38" stroke (do You think I should?) should I get a forged 383 crank or go new? Internal balance? How about rods, stock suffice? And pistons I think should be flat top with a height that will result in zero deck. Agree?

Then for the top, Closed chamber iron, or aluminum heads? And the cam, hydraulic roller?

Or are you in the stroker camp?

 

[66 Sat]

The big question is...how fast did you go in the quarter?

 

[BSB67]

My recommendation: +500 cuin, TF heads, 10.5 CR, custom street solid roller by PRH, 440 2D intake, 2 1/2" TTI exhaust. Nothing magical. The rest is just details.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

3.23 and a heavy car I agree on 500+ cubic inches.
With exhaust manifolds though I would go with edelbrock or stealths.

 

[furious70]

You have to decide if you want it to be truly indistinguishable from stock like a F.A.ST. car or just stockish looking. Guidance follows that decision.
If I were you I'd figure out the cam timing and then sell that one running. People are always looking for reliable running big blocks. You're going to be starting from a clean sheet of paper, might as well collect some dimes from previous investment. Or if you have other cars, keep as a spare

 

[Slapstik]

@furious70: I would be happiest with FAST style stock appearance. If it were super beneficial to make an exception somewhere, I'd consider it, but I'd be happier if I didn't have to. I don't want to sell the engine because it is the original engine to the car. Plus the stockish rebuild didn't cost much at all. Under $2k if I recall right. If anything, I wish I didn't have to pull the engine all over again, but I think we've determined here that it has to happen, and I assume you agree.

 

[RemCharger]

The big question is...how fast did you go in the quarter?

 

[Curiousyellow71]

You will need to hone it at least to break the glaze to switch pistons, and you also need proper clearance for the New pistons. If you want to be maximum on performance it really needs Honed w a deck plate, and it sounds like you need a different shop! As far as what you mentioned on shaved heads...the valley tray can still fit if the intake side of the heads is plained. A good mopar shop will know how much to take off accordingly and it may have been done already? Shaving heads will NOT affect the flow. We have a set of 346 heads that are down 73cc w .070 removed, they were 88cc.

What ever direction your headed down the most can be gained in the heads. With bigger valves and porting there is plenty of potential with 346 heads. Cost and performance wise you can put a lot of money in iron heads, and if aluminum heads works for your goals...Absolutely do It! Getting to big of cfm on the heads the exhaust manifolds will be the restriction.

F.a.s.t cars have stock parts that are heavily modified and the wicked ones run very high compression. Very strict on what parts can be used externally.