Cloning: tribute, fraud, or ????

[696pack]

I dont like what I see here
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290589243397&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Vintag standard rivets? K-frame standard V8? No torque boxes? Buildsheet # bodynumbers?

During restoration often times V.I.N. tags are removed and replaced with the wrong rivets by those that don't know the difference.

The ad says that the original engine was blown and replaced. Lots of things can happen over 40+ years.

Where do you see any pictures that you can see if it has torque boxes or not? I can't see if it does or does not. BTW, not all Hemi cars had torque boxes, they were sometimes forgotten at the factory especially in the earlier years so even if it doesn't have them this would not rule it out as a real Hemi car.

Maybe the car never HAD a broadcast sheet (the correct term BTW is NOT build sheet.)

If you want to check the body numbers then ask the seller, but you need to know what they used. Different years use different numbers. 1968 back they used the S.O.# NOT the V.I.N.

Now, with all of this said I will say that there IS a true Hemi telltale that 90%of KNOWLEDGEABLE Mopar people don't know about that ONLY Hemi cars have. Can you spot it?

 

[696pack]

My quick take is that its my money and my car and I will do what I want with it regardless of anyone elses opinion...

Now, I have a 73 Satellite that has the RR hood, and 8 3/4, will have a 500ci in it and it has all interior right out of a 73 roadrunner. Still has the Satellite gauge cluster and dash symbol. It has the roadrunner strip and yes it even says roadrunner. Oh well. the reality is when I got the stripes, I asked to have that removed and they wanted an extra 50.00 and I said no way. So yep, it says roadrunner on the side. Did I build the car to sale as a roadrunner, nope. Will it tick some real roadrunner owners off at cruises and such? don't know and don't care. I would never try to pass it off as a roadrunner in hopes to profit and I don't even call it a clone....it is a satellite. The flip side is if someone bought it without looking at the vin and such, they are just as wrong.

The entire point here is that anyone that is buying a car and are concerned that it is a REAL car should have enough sense to check the V.I.N. and that will tell them what they ARE buying. If they don't then shame on them. It really isn't the sellers responsibility to tell them but I would and would suggest it just in case the buyer doesn't have clue. OTOH, most people that don't know the difference don't really care as they are just buying what they LIKE when looking at it.

 

[Clay Dots]

good feedback / info

During restoration often times V.I.N. tags are removed and replaced with the wrong rivets by those that don't know the difference.

The ad says that the original engine was blown and replaced. Lots of things can happen over 40+ years.

Where do you see any pictures that you can see if it has torque boxes or not? I can't see if it does or does not. BTW, not all Hemi cars had torque boxes, they were sometimes forgotten at the factory especially in the earlier years so even if it doesn't have them this would not rule it out as a real Hemi car.

Maybe the car never HAD a broadcast sheet (the correct term BTW is NOT build sheet.)

If you want to check the body numbers then ask the seller, but you need to know what they used. Different years use different numbers. 1968 back they used the S.O.# NOT the V.I.N.

Now, with all of this said I will say that there IS a true Hemi telltale that 90%of KNOWLEDGEABLE Mopar people don't know about that ONLY Hemi cars have. Can you spot it?

good info 696, Would it be the 6 leaf springs on the right and 5 and 2 halfs on the left? larger diameter torsion bar, larger fuel lines? regards CD:icon_rolleyes:

 

[TruBee]

I just finished building a clone, tribute, or mutant bee, or whatevee you want to call it. I took a clean 318 base coronet and built it from the ground up, with a date correct 440 warranty replacemenf block. $50k later, I enjoy driving the car where ever I choose. I turn heads each and every block. the smiles on the kids faces mean more to me than anything. So keep your roped off numbers matching originals. Let them dry rot in storage, because as soon as your number is up your heirs are dumping them all! Believe it! Oh, by the way I also painted the car a non 1969 color. Sue me!

 

[Clay Dots]

right on brother

:eusa_clap:

I just finished building a clone, tribute, or mutant bee, or whatevee you want to call it. I took a clean 318 base coronet and built it from the ground up, with a date correct 440 warranty replacemenf block. $50k later, I enjoy driving the car where ever I choose. I turn heads each and every block. the smiles on the kids faces mean more to me than anything. So keep your roped off numbers matching originals. Let them dry rot in storage, because as soon as your number is up your heirs are dumping them all! Believe it! Oh, by the way I also painted the car a non 1969 color. Sue me!

I concure, thats what its all about! I couldnt have said it better!:bootyshake:

 

[696pack]

good info 696, Would it be the 6 leaf springs on the right and 5 and 2 halfs on the left? larger diameter torsion bar, larger fuel lines? regards CD:icon_rolleyes:

Those are some of the things that SHOULD be there on a Hemi car but they are also there on GTXs and R/Ts with a 440.

What I am talking about is none of the above. I will leave this un-answered for a few days and we will see if anyone can tell ME. If not I will let everyone know if no one spots (or knows) it.:tongue3:

 

[Ron 73]

Don't you match the SO number with the Vehicle Order Number and it ties in with the VIN of the car? I read this somewhere because I never knew that people thru around the "Max Wedge" in the same way as the other cars we call clone or Tribute, Being few were made i can understand how someone can get mad so to learn a little about the original Max Wedges ive been reading a little on them, to get a better understanding. Maybe this isint it but thought id throw it in..


What was the last year the original Max Wedge hemi was made?

 

[70rr-brian]

During restoration often times V.I.N. tags are removed and replaced with the wrong rivets by those that don't know the difference.

The ad says that the original engine was blown and replaced. Lots of things can happen over 40+ years.

Where do you see any pictures that you can see if it has torque boxes or not? I can't see if it does or does not. BTW, not all Hemi cars had torque boxes, they were sometimes forgotten at the factory especially in the earlier years so even if it doesn't have them this would not rule it out as a real Hemi car.

Maybe the car never HAD a broadcast sheet (the correct term BTW is NOT build sheet.)

If you want to check the body numbers then ask the seller, but you need to know what they used. Different years use different numbers. 1968 back they used the S.O.# NOT the V.I.N.

Now, with all of this said I will say that there IS a true Hemi telltale that 90%of KNOWLEDGEABLE Mopar people don't know about that ONLY Hemi cars have. Can you spot it?

It says hemi on the side...duh

LOL, j/k. You should make this its own thread. I would like to see the answer and see what other members guess and it being hidden in obscurity in this thread may make a lot of folks just skip over it.

 

[moparstuart]

clones have there place

 

[Ron 73]

clones have there place

Yes they do but if you notice it keeps reverting back to the mighty dollar, having something thats original therefore expensive and yet another step ahead of the Jones. Its normal, but i ask myself the question on who has more fun, The guy who looks at his sitting well hidden and secure from the world in a building or me and others who are headed to the local ice cream stand to have some fun.

 

[696pack]

Don't you match the SO number with the Vehicle Order Number and it ties in with the VIN of the car? I read this somewhere because I never knew that people thru around the "Max Wedge" in the same way as the other cars we call clone or Tribute, Being few were made i can understand how someone can get mad so to learn a little about the original Max Wedges ive been reading a little on them, to get a better understanding. Maybe this isint it but thought id throw it in..


What was the last year the original Max Wedge hemi was made?

The SO# (sales order number) and the VON (vehilce order number) are basically the same thing. They changed the name in the 1969 model year. Both the V.I.N and the S.O. are used on the IBM card, invoice, window sticker, and the broadcast sheet, etc. However, in 1969 they started using a portion of the V.I.N. for the hidden numbers rather than the previously used SO#. The only way to tie the V.I.N. to the hidden numbers is to have one of the above things that has both on it. If you have a car that is missing the title and V.I.N. tag you will never know what the V.I.N. is without one of these things because both are NOT on the fender tag on the 68-back cars.

There is no such thing as a Max Wedge Hemi. It is either a Max Wedge or a Hemi. They are two different engines.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Those are some of the things that SHOULD be there on a Hemi car but they are also there on GTXs and R/Ts with a 440.

What I am talking about is none of the above. I will leave this un-answered for a few days and we will see if anyone can tell ME. If not I will let everyone know if no one spots (or knows) it.:tongue3:

Extra metal brace welded in behind the rear spring hangers on frame?

 

[day1glo]

I grew up in the 80s, bought a 70 GTO that was red with a whale-tail spoiler and The Judge badges, no stripes. I paid $2000. I didn't care that it wasn't a Judge or that I was molesting a true GTO. I tore the motor apart and built it the way I wanted. When I sold it the guy asked if it was the original motor and to be honest I didn't even know how to check, and still don't...never will.

Now guys like me can't find cool cars for reasonable prices because of the Barrett Jackson types out there. Today everybody wants $5000 for rusted junk because with only a 30-40 thousand dollar restoration they might get lucky at an auction someday, and a rich guy will forget he even bought it after he adds it to his collection.

It took me a long time to find a car that would be fun to fix up. I bought the shell of a 71 Sattelite Sebring Plus 383 car that was a doner car for somebody else's million dollar restoration. I wouldn't know how to build a period correct CLONE, but I have to admit there is nothing cooler than that cute little cartoon bird!

 

[sawdoff]

I bought a complete 4 spd setup from a guy on craigslist. He had everything from a 68 RR. He had new carpet and a 70 steering column. He had planned to put it in his car. While i was there we talked cars and look at his 70 conv. which he had called a clone. I just looked him straight in the eyes and said Hell im just working on a satellite

I am going to run a bulge hood and have gtx taillights. It will not have any of the original drivetrain although i have it all. I plan to leave the satellite trim. Im building what i want it to be...but will not call it a clone

 

[68GTX4SPEED]

The reinforcement behind the leafspring schackle.

 

[68sportsatelliteragtop]

As long as the car is not being represented as an original factory piece, I have no problem with "clones" or "tributes" or whatever you may want to call them. The problem is when someone knowingly goes out of their way to decieve others. Rebodied cars or cars with restamped blocks are examples of cars that were put together to rip someone off. Here are a couple pics of a 71 Hemi Cuda Clone. Talking to the current owner he told me he bought the car with a load of receipts from the restoration/transformation. Total over 168K from one of the big shops in Canada.He purchased the car from the second owner since the cloning for around 50K.Check out the fender tag, this is how it should be done. I guess the point I am trying to make is just because it is a clone doesn't mean someone didn't put serious coin in it without the idea of decieving others.I would pay 50K for this car in a second, although the idea of living in it after the wife got done with me would keep me from offering!

 

[roadrunnerman]

another reason for building a clone,tribute,etc..not just for the owners personal satisfaction or enjoyment,but also it gives a taste of history to how the cars were built back then.Also when you take them to a car show,then mom and dad can show their kids what a certain car was like without have to pay big bucks to go to a museum since the owners of the real deals don't want to take them out and take a chance on some idiot damaging it.Yes i agree,don't try to pass a fake for the real thing,but build it how YOU want to enjoy it.My RR's are real,my volare has the RR package,but i'm not going to try and make it into a petty kit(my choice).my 71 charger is s'posed to have a 383 and my 72 charger rallye is s'posed to have a 400(but has a 68 440 in it) if i find a corrct year motor for either one that is what i would tell anyone that wants to know that they are not the original engines.Just taking my turn at sounding off.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Hee hee...my REAL 71 gtx is running a 68 318. Cloned into a clone?

 

[68GTX4SPEED]

Mine 68 GTX without matching motor will next year be motivated with my 68 Charger HEMI driveline without matching body :hello2:

 

[Ron 73]

As long as the car is not being represented as an original factory piece, I have no problem with "clones" or "tributes" or whatever you may want to call them. The problem is when someone knowingly goes out of their way to decieve others. Rebodied cars or cars with restamped blocks are examples of cars that were put together to rip someone off. Here are a couple pics of a 71 Hemi Cuda Clone. Talking to the current owner he told me he bought the car with a load of receipts from the restoration/transformation. Total over 168K from one of the big shops in Canada.He purchased the car from the second owner since the cloning for around 50K.Check out the fender tag, this is how it should be done. I guess the point I am trying to make is just because it is a clone doesn't mean someone didn't put serious coin in it without the idea of decieving others.I would pay 50K for this car in a second, although the idea of living in it after the wife got done with me would keep me from offering!

They did a fantastic job on that car, thats a beauty i think my brother in law would consider living in that one and he isint married anymore. If that car was real it couldn't have been done any better then this one nor cheaper. they put some serious work and coin in this one.. IMO.